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Boxing Boards => Worldwide Boxing Discussion => Topic started by: Hitman on June 14, 2009, 11:23:52 AM



Title: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Hitman on June 14, 2009, 11:23:52 AM
Right! we had a lot of banter over on LiveFight with this question so i thought id bring it back!

With Wlad now out of the picture Haye is hoping for a fight with Vitali in September what will happen??

Thoughts??


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: dave j on June 14, 2009, 11:26:22 AM
as much as i like david haye,, i honestly beleive vitali is a step to far,,,so its a ko for vitali :(


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 14, 2009, 11:29:11 AM
The only way Vitali would lose is if age has finally caught up with him. Vitali by KO.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: AO88 on June 14, 2009, 11:29:27 AM
Vitali dominates Haye and stops him inside 8 rounds.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: jimjack on June 14, 2009, 11:44:20 AM
Vitali k.o unless he's gotten very old very quickly.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Gavin on June 14, 2009, 11:51:22 AM
Vitali by TKO, but want a Haye KO!


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: jonjoe on June 14, 2009, 12:17:38 PM
Vitali dominates Haye and stops him inside 8 rounds.

So you reckon Haye would do a job comparable to Danny Williams?

Think it would either be an early KO or Haye would use his speed to frustrate Vitali over the 12.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: AO88 on June 14, 2009, 01:07:29 PM
So you reckon Haye would do a job comparable to Danny Williams?

Think it would either be an early KO or Haye would use his speed to frustrate Vitali over the 12.

I think Haye would not get close to Vitali to land anything without eating jabs on the way in and whatever comes behind it, Haye is not big enough and is sometimes a bit predictable and i think Vitali is by far clever enough to pick him off and make him look a bit of a mess by the end of it.
Haye might have a moment or two of joy but i just dont see him givin Vitali much trouble.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 14, 2009, 01:16:58 PM
I think Haye would not get close to Vitali to land anything without eating jabs on the way in and whatever comes behind it, Haye is not big enough and is sometimes a bit predictable and i think Vitali is by far clever enough to pick him off and make him look a bit of a mess by the end of it.
Haye might have a moment or two of joy but i just dont see him givin Vitali much trouble.
Couple that with a chin that had him in trouble against fighters 50 lbs lighter and it doesn't bode well. You're right about the predicibility. Barrett lasted 6 rounds and Haye only had 17% accuracy as he was telegraphing the big right which was all he was looking to throw for at least 5 rounds. The thing is that he's been going for the higlight Ko's an has not been boxing as well as he can for the last couple of years so I don't know if he'll have it automatically against Vitali, especially if he gets hurt. If he's stumbled he should clinch and box out the round. Would he though?


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Hitman on June 14, 2009, 01:43:06 PM
Vitali would take Haye apart, regardless of how robotic he is.

Klitschko has been inactive and injury prone but if he stays healthy he is a clear winner.

Vitali has an 80' reach and thats exactly where haye would be, right on the end of it.
(http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/bridget/peterpunch.jpg)

 Byrd frustrated Klitschko with speed and movement and if Haye is to win thats exactly what he has to do, Haye's only chance is to frustrate Vitali over 12 rounds because he wont KO him.

That said, Klitschko has the biggest KO percentage of any heavyweight ever and Haye has a weak chin! not good news

Vitali by KO inside 7


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: jonjoe on June 14, 2009, 01:49:41 PM
Vitali would take Haye apart, regardless of how robotic he is.

Klitschko has been inactive and injury prone but if he stays healthy he is a clear winner.

Vitali has an 80' reach and thats exactly where haye would be, right on the end of it.
([url]http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/bridget/peterpunch.jpg[/url])

 Byrd frustrated Klitschko with speed and movement and if Haye is to win thats exactly what he has to do, Haye's only chance is to frustrate Vitali over 12 rounds because he wont KO him.

That said, Klitschko has the biggest KO percentage of any heavyweight ever and Haye has a weak chin! not good news

Vitali by KO inside 7


Nice picture ;D

I think Haye has the tools to frustrate him in the way you mention Byrd did. But as Deck said he is going for the one punch KO a bit too much. In fairness he has got the KO's  under his belt but his temperament would have to change in a way that would see him use those aforementioned tools.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: WelshDevilRob on June 14, 2009, 04:06:45 PM
Haye via Ko. Somewhere around the 8th or 9th.

Vitali has had two fights since a 4 year absence. He beat the painfully slow and under trained Sam Peter and looked good in doing so.

He then beat Juan Carlos Gomez and on paper it looks a good win. Trouble is Vitali was blowing hard after 4 rounds and got nailed frequently by Gomez - a fighter who has seen better days. It was one of the worst fights technically I had seen at this level.

Haye is much quicker than both Gomez and Peter and also alot more accurate and harder to hit. He is a superbly trained athlete which can't be said for either Peter or Gomez.

Vitali is not the man that beat-up Kirk Johnson, Corrie Sanders and Danny Williams. He still brings the size and a decent if slow jab. His Ko record is impressive but he is not a one punch hitter like a Shavers or Foreman.

At this weight Haye can still get caught and Ko'd but I think he'll box and pick his shots and finish a tired, battered Vitali off later on in the fight (Round 8 or 9)

I'm hoping Haye gets another fight under his belt to get used to carrying the extra weight, he's been too inactive to jump straight in with Vitali.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 14, 2009, 04:22:53 PM
Haye via Ko. Somewhere around the 8th or 9th.

Vitali has had two fights since a 4 year absence. He beat the painfully slow and under trained Sam Peter and looked good in doing so.

He then beat Juan Carlos Gomez and on paper it looks a good win. Trouble is Vitali was blowing hard after 4 rounds and got nailed frequently by Gomez - a fighter who has seen better days. It was one of the worst fights technically I had seen at this level.

Haye is much quicker than both Gomez and Peter and also alot more accurate and harder to hit. He is a superbly trained athlete which can't be said for either Peter or Gomez.

Vitali is not the man that beat-up Kirk Johnson, Corrie Sanders and Danny Williams. He still brings the size and a decent if slow jab. His Ko record is impressive but he is not a one punch hitter like a Shavers or Foreman.

At this weight Haye can still get caught and Ko'd but I think he'll box and pick his shots and finish a tired, battered Vitali off later on in the fight (Round 8 or 9)

I'm hoping Haye gets another fight under his belt to get used to carrying the extra weight, he's been too inactive to jump straight in with Vitali.
He wan't overlyu accurate in the Barrett fight. He's got to box like he can if he's any chance. Still as old as Vitali is, an his stamina's not what it used to be, he's intelligent and he will box behind the jab and use the counter right and reach advantage to tag Haye on the way in. Haye's got an akward, fast style but what part of keeping his hands at his waist will work against Klitschko especially since Vitali can hit him outside Davids own range?


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: WelshDevilRob on June 14, 2009, 04:32:00 PM
He wan't overlyu accurate in the Barrett fight. He's got to box like he can if he's any chance. Still as old as Vitali is, an his stamina's not what it used to be, he's intelligent and he will box behind the jab and use the counter right and reach advantage to tag Haye on the way in. Haye's got an akward, fast style but what part of keeping his hands at his waist will work against Klitschko especially since Vitali can hit him outside Davids own range?


I know what you mean Deck he wasn't overly accurate against Barrett and still managed to floor him 5 times. ;D
Haye does get abit wild but most of the time it's a steady, calculated approach mean't to draw the opponent in and catch them with a big, fast counter - I think it'll work against Vitali. Vitali is such a hittable target these days as Gomez showed.
The hands will need to be higher to block the jab - though Haye tends to use his reflexes.
 


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 14, 2009, 04:42:26 PM
I know what you mean Deck he wasn't overly accurate against Barrett and still managed to floor him 5 times. ;D
Haye does get abit wild but most of the time it's a steady, calculated approach mean't to draw the opponent in and catch them with a big, fast counter - I think it'll work against Vitali. Vitali is such a hittable target these days as Gomez showed.
The hands will need to be higher to block the jab - though Haye tends to use his reflexes.
 
That's not a viable plan against someone of Vitali's size and reach. Just one of his punches could knock David down and/or out. When's the last time he kept his guard up for a fight? When was the last time he boxed properly? The mormec fight I'd say and even then he tried using his reflexes but got backed up to the ropes on several occasions and tagged on the back foot. That's how he was dropped too. A prime Vitali would have annihilated him and I feel the only real chance he has now is that Vitlali's a fighter that's gone downhill in stamina, speed and agility.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: WelshDevilRob on June 14, 2009, 05:13:58 PM
That's not a viable plan against someone of Vitali's size and reach. Just one of his punches could knock David down and/or out. When's the last time he kept his guard up for a fight? When was the last time he boxed properly? The mormec fight I'd say and even then he tried using his reflexes but got backed up to the ropes on several occasions and tagged on the back foot. That's how he was dropped too. A prime Vitali would have annihilated him and I feel the only real chance he has now is that Vitlali's a fighter that's gone downhill in stamina, speed and agility.


Vitali is overrated. The man couldn't beat a 37 year old, heaviest ever, one-foot in retirement Lennox Lewis (who supposedly had a dodgy chin - but took everything Vitali landed). Chris Byrd (weighing 6ft and 210żlbs) managed to beat Vitali, yet Byrd was destroyed a year earlier by Ike Ibeabuchi inside 5 rounds.

The Klitschkos are good Heavyweights but have been successful largely due to the poor, sorry state of the division. A pity Ike went nuts as he would have destroyed the pair of them.

I suppose it doesn't matter about a prime Vitali as Haye won't be facing that fighter.

Haye was severely weight drained against Mormeck and his punch output was limited due to that. Yes he got floored but the replays clearly show his foot standing on the advertising triangle under the ropes and his leg giving way - hence the mad scramble to keep his balance while getting tagged by Mormeck.

While I appreciate I'm in the minority of views on this fight I think he is a fighter in the ascendancy and will just be too quick and powerful for the slower Vitali.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Alvy on June 14, 2009, 06:11:47 PM
I'm afraid that I will have to go with the majority and pick Vitali. I just think that the physical advantages will be too much for Haye to overcome. I would've given our boy a punchers chance against the younger Klitschko but Vitali is made of far sterner stuff as he showed against Lewis.
Yes Haye has the ability to outbox the bigger man but I cannot see him keeping out of harms way for the full twelve rounds against a guy with an awkward style and 80' reach. At some stage he will get clipped - and he'll go.
 


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: jim1973 on June 14, 2009, 06:28:32 PM
Vitali as soon as he connects.......but i have a sneaky feeling haye early.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: AO88 on June 14, 2009, 07:17:50 PM

Vitali is overrated. The man couldn't beat a 37 year old, heaviest ever, one-foot in retirement Lennox Lewis (who supposedly had a dodgy chin - but took everything Vitali landed). Chris Byrd (weighing 6ft and 210żlbs) managed to beat Vitali, yet Byrd was destroyed a year earlier by Ike Ibeabuchi inside 5 rounds.

The Klitschkos are good Heavyweights but have been successful largely due to the poor, sorry state of the division. A pity Ike went nuts as he would have destroyed the pair of them.

I suppose it doesn't matter about a prime Vitali as Haye won't be facing that fighter.

Haye was severely weight drained against Mormeck and his punch output was limited due to that. Yes he got floored but the replays clearly show his foot standing on the advertising triangle under the ropes and his leg giving way - hence the mad scramble to keep his balance while getting tagged by Mormeck.

While I appreciate I'm in the minority of views on this fight I think he is a fighter in the ascendancy and will just be too quick and powerful for the slower Vitali.

I must say i do think a fair amount of people are overrating David Haye mate also to be honest, the funny thing was that everyone now slags Enzo Mac of for not being very good yet he is the guy David Haye seems to get his most credit for in terms of wins.
He has not really been in one of the hardest divisions in boxing through out his career as he, yet because he won the belts it seems now most people see it as just something that should naturally happen in him walking through the heavyweight division.
 I have the concern David is underestimating the Klitchsko's somewhat and could be in for a harsh lesson if he fights them, "once david lands a big shot on them" he has to reach them first and he will find that as hard as anything with a jab stuck in his face.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: MadMariner on June 14, 2009, 07:25:07 PM

I honestly though David had a good chance against Wlad,  and was really looking forward to this fight.

Against Vitali he has virtually no chance,  just can't see him lasting more than 7 rds  and thats opptomistic.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Sez on June 15, 2009, 08:49:27 AM
I'm REALLY hoping that Haye can do it... but Vitali is much stronger than Wlad, i'm unsure on this one but i'll be cheering for Haye reguardless


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Boxingfan1991 on June 15, 2009, 09:29:45 AM
I've got a sneaky suspicion Haye will win this early on, maybe thinking more with my heart than my head though...

Finally managed to find this damn forum :D


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: G-man on June 15, 2009, 09:43:42 AM
i like Vitali by Stoppage.

I made Haye a big underdog against Wlad too but the fact Wlad can often fight a bit 'scared' coupled with his dubious beard and Haye's power gave David a chance. Vitali has shown nothing but a decent chin and doesn't really get flustered - he's a much stiffer test in my opinion.

Haye's win over Barrett wasn't that impressive to me.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 15, 2009, 09:49:39 AM
i like Vitali by Stoppage.

I made Haye a big underdog against Wlad too but the fact Wlad can often fight a bit 'scared' coupled with his dubious beard and Haye's power gave David a chance. Vitali has shown nothing but a decent chin and doesn't really get flustered - he's a much stiffer test in my opinion.

Haye's win over Barrett wasn't that impressive to me.
Vitali hasn't lost his power but his stamina doesn't seem to be what it was. That's Haye's only chance I feel. I don't know if it will last long enough to make it an issue.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: G-man on June 15, 2009, 09:50:59 AM
Vitali hasn't lost his power but his stamina doesn't seem to be what it was. That's Haye's only chance I feel. I don't know if it will last long enough to make it an issue.
I don't think Haye's stamina is great though and he is simply awful when he is backed up.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: CelticHiggo on June 17, 2009, 08:44:44 AM
Haye would be badly beaten in this fight.Actually both Klitchkos would beat Haye fairly handy but i would love it if Haye could pull it off because i think the heavyweight division badly needs him as champ.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Lane on June 17, 2009, 09:20:45 AM
haye will frustrate vitali with his speed and movement and see him catching him a hayemaker right on the button and ending the night in the 5th


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: joey_ed27 on June 17, 2009, 10:11:49 AM
Honestly I dont think Haye has much of a chance to win, although Im hoping Haye can land a hayemaker and put some excitement back in the heavyweight div.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: G-man on June 17, 2009, 10:33:03 AM
haye will frustrate vitali with his speed and movement and see him catching him a hayemaker right on the button and ending the night in the 5th
Do you think his movement is really that good? he's never been particularly elusive IMO.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Bolton Dave on June 17, 2009, 10:37:42 AM
Haye's best chance of winning this fight would be to come out the blocks very quickly and perhaps take Vitali by suprise.

However, I do think Vitali is a bit too long in the tooth to fall for this and he would have too much for Haye.

If I was a betting man, I would go with Vitali in 4 - 6


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Skav on June 17, 2009, 11:34:01 AM
If Lennox couldn't drop Vitali with his bombs, I can't see Haye doing it either. I would tip Vitali to win somewhere in the middle rounds.

Wladimir has the much weaker chin so Haye would fare better against him.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: grizzlyadams on June 17, 2009, 12:44:21 PM
I don't know how accurate it is but boxrec says vitali only has a 2 inch reach advantage over haye (203cm to 198cm) although with the height advantage I suppose its emphasised all the more. I would love haye to pull this off, but everything seems to suggest if haye can't shift him within 4-5 rounds then its vitali's fight and he can end it when he chooses. I can see haye having a real go in the early stages but being repelled by a high guard and a stiff jab. Haye's best shot is the counter right hand over the jab but I think with vitali's height and that jab, he is in severe danger of walking on to something and taking an early night, even more so with his low guard. Would love to be wrong though


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 17, 2009, 01:00:02 PM
I think that if David goes for it early on Vitali will expect that and he's more likely to walk or leap onto a counter right.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Maple Leaf on June 17, 2009, 02:25:07 PM
Haye via Ko. Somewhere around the 8th or 9th.

Vitali has had two fights since a 4 year absence. He beat the painfully slow and under trained Sam Peter and looked good in doing so.

He then beat Juan Carlos Gomez and on paper it looks a good win. Trouble is Vitali was blowing hard after 4 rounds and got nailed frequently by Gomez - a fighter who has seen better days. It was one of the worst fights technically I had seen at this level.

Haye is much quicker than both Gomez and Peter and also alot more accurate and harder to hit. He is a superbly trained athlete which can't be said for either Peter or Gomez.

Vitali is not the man that beat-up Kirk Johnson, Corrie Sanders and Danny Williams. He still brings the size and a decent if slow jab. His Ko record is impressive but he is not a one punch hitter like a Shavers or Foreman.

At this weight Haye can still get caught and Ko'd but I think he'll box and pick his shots and finish a tired, battered Vitali off later on in the fight (Round 8 or 9)

I'm hoping Haye gets another fight under his belt to get used to carrying the extra weight, he's been too inactive to jump straight in with Vitali.

There is only 1 way the fight would end and that -obviously- is with crawling around on the canvas. All the rest of this is nonesense and hot air and you all know it. Haye is too small, too weak, too awkward on his feet, and has  punch resistence to handle a juggernaught like VK. Keep dreaming though.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Faulks on June 17, 2009, 02:36:24 PM
There is only 1 way the fight would end and that -obviously- is with crawling around on the canvas. All the rest of this is nonesense and hot air and you all know it. Haye is too small, too weak, too awkward on his feet, and has  punch resistence to handle a juggernaught like VK. Keep dreaming though.

Got to agree with most of this post. I do feel that Haye would struggle. I said he would beat his brother but in all honesty it was probaly my heart over head. Typical English, back your man at all costs. Have i told you England are going to win the world cup under Fabio..............


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: jimjack on June 17, 2009, 02:40:05 PM
There is only 1 way the fight would end and that -obviously- is with crawling around on the canvas. All the rest of this is nonesense and hot air and you all know it. Haye is too small, too weak, too awkward on his feet, and has  punch resistence to handle a juggernaught like VK. Keep dreaming though.

The sad thing about this is you're probably right. I say sad thing because VK is not a great heavyweight, just the best of a very bad bunch. Ability wise Haye is on a completely different planet to V.K, but sadly he will probably turn out to be too small.
Really hope i'm wrong though, as a Haye win would do more for the HW division (and boxing as a whole) than another 10 defences from these Eastern European boring robots.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Maple Leaf on June 17, 2009, 03:02:06 PM
The sad thing about this is you're probably right. I say sad thing because VK is not a great heavyweight, just the best of a very bad bunch. Ability wise Haye is on a completely different planet to V.K, but sadly he will probably turn out to be too small.
Really hope i'm wrong though, as a Haye win would do more for the HW division (and boxing as a whole) than another 10 defences from these Eastern European boring robots.

Vk and Wk knock out almost everyone they step into the ring with. Vk has the highest knockout ratio of anyone -ever- in the division. They are big and use their size very, very well. Wk has slick footwork, a brilliant jab, and can mix shots up with ease. When last have we seen a heavyweight who can throw a lead left hook or hook off three to four successive jabs? Wk has won a championship fight without ever throwing a right. Vk sent Lennox into retirement. I've just started and all of that is boring?

Holmes won a long, long list of fights fighting smaller guys and just jabbing all night. Ali layed on the ropes for a decade, or got beat up by cruiserweights, and lost a title fight to a 7-0 clubfighter or got knocked down by another English one, but babbled on with childish rimes; Foreman  walked around the ring teeter-toddling and clubbing to a win some/lose some career. But I would not say those three above were not skilled nor boring...

The Eastern Europeans are now allowed to compete and the division is now opened up to the entire world and we now see who is dominating. The western media doesn't talk them up like Ali, Foreman, or Holmes but they are the force to be reckoned with and their skill is unquestionable.

The greatest fighter on the planet, Fedor Emelianenko, doesn't talk nonesense either and he is skilled and exciting. The Asian countries know this very well but the Western media ignores it just like they ignore the heavyweights. But the facts are facts and that is what matters.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Che Guevara on June 17, 2009, 03:20:54 PM
easy nights work for vitali, weather the haye storm for the first few rounds and ends it with a big ko b4 the 8th :)


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Skav on June 17, 2009, 03:31:57 PM
Vk and Wk knock out almost everyone they step into the ring with. Vk has the highest knockout ratio of anyone -ever- in the division. They are big and use their size very, very well. Wk has slick footwork, a brilliant jab, and can mix shots up with ease. When last have we seen a heavyweight who can throw a lead left hook or hook off three to four successive jabs? Wk has won a championship fight without ever throwing a right. Vk sent Lennox into retirement. I've just started and all of that is boring?

Holmes won a long, long list of fights fighting smaller guys and just jabbing all night. Ali layed on the ropes for a decade, or got beat up by cruiserweights, and lost a title fight to a 7-0 clubfighter or got knocked down by another English one, but babbled on with childish rimes; Foreman  walked around the ring teeter-toddling and clubbing to a win some/lose some career. But I would not say those three above were not skilled nor boring...

The Eastern Europeans are now allowed to compete and the division is now opened up to the entire world and we now see who is dominating. The western media doesn't talk them up like Ali, Foreman, or Holmes but they are the force to be reckoned with and their skill is unquestionable.

The greatest fighter on the planet, Fedor Emelianenko, doesn't talk nonesense either and he is skilled and exciting. The Asian countries know this very well but the Western media ignores it just like they ignore the heavyweights. But the facts are facts and that is what matters.

VK and WK may knock out everyone they step into the ring with but who have they fought? The heavyweight division is a joke right now.

I would hardly call Foreman's record a win some/lose some. Have you forgotten he became the oldest heavyweight champ in history?

The media wouldn't ignore the heavyweights if they had rivals but there are none.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 17, 2009, 03:35:58 PM
VK and WK may knock out everyone they step into the ring with but who have they fought? The heavyweight division is a joke right now.

I would hardly call Foreman's record a win some/lose some. Have you forgotten he became the oldest heavyweight champ in history?

The media wouldn't ignore the heavyweights if they had rivals but there are none.

In relatiopn to that who has Haye fought? Who will remember Fragomeni, Mormeck or Enzo when it comes to it? Surely the cruisers are just as big a joke if not moreso?


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: jimjack on June 17, 2009, 03:37:56 PM
Vk and Wk knock out almost everyone they step into the ring with. Vk has the highest knockout ratio of anyone -ever- in the division. They are big and use their size very, very well. Wk has slick footwork, a brilliant jab, and can mix shots up with ease. When last have we seen a heavyweight who can throw a lead left hook or hook off three to four successive jabs? Wk has won a championship fight without ever throwing a right. Vk sent Lennox into retirement. I've just started and all of that is boring?

Holmes won a long, long list of fights fighting smaller guys and just jabbing all night. Ali layed on the ropes for a decade, or got beat up by cruiserweights, and lost a title fight to a 7-0 clubfighter or got knocked down by another English one, but babbled on with childish rimes; Foreman  walked around the ring teeter-toddling and clubbing to a win some/lose some career. But I would not say those three above were not skilled nor boring...

The Eastern Europeans are now allowed to compete and the division is now opened up to the entire world and we now see who is dominating. The western media doesn't talk them up like Ali, Foreman, or Holmes but they are the force to be reckoned with and their skill is unquestionable.

The greatest fighter on the planet, Fedor Emelianenko, doesn't talk nonesense either and he is skilled and exciting. The Asian countries know this very well but the Western media ignores it just like they ignore the heavyweights. But the facts are facts and that is what matters.

Quite right, Lennox's hand was never the same after he finished punching Frankenstein's monster with it. If you really want to be taken seriously please dont mention Ali or Holmes in the same thread as any of these robotic heavyweights you seem to have a hard on for.
Facts and statistics can be used to the advantage of the most unworthy course, and this is a prime example of this. However if you want to deal with another fact it's this... never before in the history of the sport has the heavyweight title (s) been held in such low regard by the general boxing community. IMO the reason for this is that the current crop of oversized circus freaks plodding thier way through the HW division offer no real excitement or flair. I'm not saying they are technically bad, because ofcourse they are not, but the fact they can jab and throw an overhand right whlst keeping a nice high guard does not endear them to the greater masses. The heavyweight title used to be the richest prize in sport and the blue ribbond event of any sporting year, now they are not even televised.
Whilst David haye may be too small to beat Vitali, I predict you will see more excitement, more angles, more flair in that fight (regardless if it only lasts 2 rds), and more interest generated than you will see in the rest of the mundane, formulaic career of either of the Klits or the other clones they are currently breeding in whatever lab they are using at the minute.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: grizzlyadams on June 17, 2009, 03:52:18 PM
Can't get excited about the klitschko's no matter how hard I try, and i'd consider myself a boxing nut. Only ever watched one klitschko fight live and that was wlad versus hasim rahman, but when he had him backed up against the ropes on the verge of being stopped with 45 seconds to go in the round and stood there with his hands glued to his temples and proceeded to throw 7 or so successive left jabs til the bell went, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. He got him out of there in the end but ay-yi-yi. I might watch vitali/wlad if they fight haye, but against anyone else i reckon I could have more fun cutting my toenails.

They may know how to do just enough to win a fight but in terms of their standing among the greats, they wouldn't be fit to carry holmes kit bag


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 17, 2009, 03:53:13 PM
Can't get excited about the klitschko's no matter how hard I try, and i'd consider myself a boxing nut. Only ever watched one klitschko fight live and that was wlad versus hasim rahman, but when he had him backed up against the ropes on the verge of being stopped with 45 seconds to go in the round and stood there with his hands glued to his temples and proceeded to throw 7 or so successive left jabs til the bell went, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. He got him out of there in the end but ay-yi-yi. I might watch vitali/wlad if they fight haye, but against anyone else i reckon I could have more fun cutting my toenails.

They may know how to do just enough to win a fight but in terms of their standing among the greats, they wouldn't be fit to carry holmes kit bag
Have you seen the Lewis fight mate?


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: grizzlyadams on June 17, 2009, 03:56:55 PM
Have you seen the Lewis fight mate?

Nah not yet buddy, I gather he gave some real problems tho. I suppose my previous post was more directed at wlad than vitali


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Maple Leaf on June 17, 2009, 04:00:48 PM
Quite right, Lennox's hand was never the same after he finished punching Frankenstein's monster with it. If you really want to be taken seriously please dont mention Ali or Holmes in the same thread as any of these robotic heavyweights you seem to have a hard on for.
Facts and statistics can be used to the advantage of the most unworthy course, and this is a prime example of this. However if you want to deal with another fact it's this... never before in the history of the sport has the heavyweight title (s) been held in such low regard by the general boxing community. IMO the reason for this is that the current crop of oversized circus freaks plodding thier way through the HW division offer no real excitement or flair. I'm not saying they are technically bad, because ofcourse they are not, but the fact they can jab and throw an overhand right whlst keeping a nice high guard does not endear them to the greater masses. The heavyweight title used to be the richest prize in sport and the blue ribbond event of any sporting year, now they are not even televised.
Whilst David haye may be too small to beat Vitali, I predict you will see more excitement, more angles, more flair in that fight (regardless if it only lasts 2 rds), and more interest generated than you will see in the rest of the mundane, formulaic career of either of the Klits or the other clones they are currently breeding in whatever lab they are using at the minute.

Lots of insults and misquotes.   I don't need group think or group support. Jealousy, jealousy, jealousy. That's all you know.  Boxing in general has less viewship. Think a little. There is so much more to entertain ourselves with than 30 years ago let alone 80 years ago. It's called competition. There is so much more than boxing these days. By the way, those people in Germany that bought all those tickets, who do you think they are? Haye fans? Ha! No, they know Haye is a louse and they wanted to watch first hand how Wladimir was going to almost murder him. Haye sold a few thousand on his own in England. So much for English loving him. Now Hatton and Calzaghe, they are another story and actually have fans not just people in the media who love them. Watch the HBO highlight reel on Eastside boxing right now of WK and you'll see a real fighter. You probably were not old enough to see Holmes fight but as I said he mostly dined on his jab alone against real weaklings but those are the type of facts I was talking about.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 17, 2009, 04:03:51 PM
Nah not yet buddy, I gather he gave some real problems tho. I suppose my previous post was more directed at wlad than vitali
Wlad is actually quite talented. He's got better skills that Vitali if he's let his hands go. He was alot more agressive before he got KO'd by Sanders. After that and the Brewster fight he;s decided to box a bit boringly as he know's he can win that way. Like it or not no one's been able to outbox him since which says something at least. He's be alot more exciting if he wasn't afraid he was going to get sparked out by an average punch.
Vitali was up on the scorecards against Lewis and was punching hard. He took some tremendous shots including some huge uppercut from Lennox that would have felled a horse. All this being said Lewis was getting old and was out of shape. He was more tired than hurt at the time of the stoppage, He was meant to be taking on Kirk Johnson at the time but he backed out for whatever reason and Lewis elected to fight Vitali(who was in training for another fight) on two or three weeks notice. So fair pay to him. Neither man's heart was in question on the night and Vitali's face was hanging off him at the stoppage. He'll still got scars.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Maple Leaf on June 17, 2009, 04:04:50 PM
Can't get excited about the klitschko's no matter how hard I try, and i'd consider myself a boxing nut. Only ever watched one klitschko fight live and that was wlad versus hasim rahman, but when he had him backed up against the ropes on the verge of being stopped with 45 seconds to go in the round and stood there with his hands glued to his temples and proceeded to throw 7 or so successive left jabs til the bell went, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. He got him out of there in the end but ay-yi-yi. I might watch vitali/wlad if they fight haye, but against anyone else i reckon I could have more fun cutting my toenails.

They may know how to do just enough to win a fight but in terms of their standing among the greats, they wouldn't be fit to carry holmes kit bag

This is a complete misrepresentation of what really happened in the Wlad/Rahman fight. Rahman was beaten and battered and bruised for 7 rounds until the ref stepped in and saved him. Wlad looked every bit the World Champion he is in that fight. Rahman barely landed a glove on him for those 7 rounds.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 17, 2009, 04:08:03 PM
This is a complete misrepresentation of what really happened in the Wlad/Rahman fight. Rahman was beaten and battered and bruised for 7 rounds until the ref stepped in and saved him. Wlad looked every bit the World Champion he is in that fight. Rahman barely landed a glove on him for those 7 rounds.
In fairness I think what Grizzy has a hard time with is that when Hasim was getting stumbled in the end by jabs, Wlad never stepped in and tried to finished it like he could, and should have. Rahman's punches were weak at that stage and he couldn't have hurt him.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Maple Leaf on June 17, 2009, 04:11:25 PM
In fairness I think what Grizzy has a hard time with is that when Hasim was getting stumbled in the end by jabs, Wlad never stepped in and tried to finished it like he could, and should have. Rahman's punches were weak at that stage and he couldn't have hurt him.

Deck, again you guys are not telling it like it was. Wlad DID step in with all kinds of shots and the ref stopped the fight. Rahman had been fighting against the ropes with his hands up trying to tire Wlad like you know who against you know what. When your opponent does that it is harder to land a signature punch.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 17, 2009, 04:17:48 PM
Deck, again you guys are not telling it like it was. Wlad DID step in with all kinds of shots and the ref stopped the fight. Rahman had been fighting against the ropes with his hands up trying to tire Wlad like you know who against you know what. When your opponent does that it is harder to land a signature punch.
I'll have a look at the final couple of rounds again later but I felt that Rahman was there to be beaten and Wlad had more stamina and was untouched all night. He had the ability to finish it better than that from what I remember. Rahman didn't have enough left to put up a struggle if Wlad had gone for it.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: grizzlyadams on June 17, 2009, 04:33:15 PM
Wlad is actually quite talented. He's got better skills that Vitali if he's let his hands go. He was alot more agressive before he got KO'd by Sanders. After that and the Brewster fight he;s decided to box a bit boringly as he know's he can win that way. Like it or not no one's been able to outbox him since which says something at least. He's be alot more exciting if he wasn't afraid he was going to get sparked out by an average punch.
Vitali was up on the scorecards against Lewis and was punching hard. He took some tremendous shots including some huge uppercut from Lennox that would have felled a horse. All this being said Lewis was getting old and was out of shape. He was more tired than hurt at the time of the stoppage, He was meant to be taking on Kirk Johnson at the time but he backed out for whatever reason and Lewis elected to fight Vitali(who was in training for another fight) on two or three weeks notice. So fair pay to him. Neither man's heart was in question on the night and Vitali's face was hanging off him at the stoppage. He'll still got scars.

Fair shout mate, I suppose I was a bit strong in my dismissal of the K brothers. No offence intended maple leaf, I was merely offering my opinion. Being a light middleweight myself, I am geared towards the lighter weight classes and the busier fighters therefore I find wlad a bit inactive to my eyes but each to their own  ;)


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 17, 2009, 04:36:39 PM
Fair shout mate, I suppose I was a bit strong in my dismissal of the K brothers. No offence intended maple leaf, I was merely offering my opinion. Being a light middleweight myself, I am geared towards the lighter weight classes and the busier fighters therefore I find wlad a bit inactive to my eyes but each to their own  ;)
It would have been interesting to see how it would have turned out if Vitali had been a boxer rather than kickboxer from early on. His best years were surely behind him in terms of stamina, speed and agility when he got to the top in boxing not to mention the injuries that have kept him out so long.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Maple Leaf on June 17, 2009, 04:57:15 PM
Fair shout mate, I suppose I was a bit strong in my dismissal of the K brothers. No offence intended maple leaf, I was merely offering my opinion. Being a light middleweight myself, I am geared towards the lighter weight classes and the busier fighters therefore I find wlad a bit inactive to my eyes but each to their own  ;)

No offence taken grizzly, and I like the middles too. The smaller, lighter men can and do more. The heavies also tend to be more carefull as one wrong move can lead to a knockdown or a KO. Lennox says that all the time on his HBO commentary.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: deck on June 17, 2009, 04:59:08 PM
No offence taken grizzly, and I like the middles too. The smaller, lighter men can and do more. The heavies also tend to be more carefull as one wrong move and lead to a knockdown or a KO. Lennox says that all the time on his HBO commentary.
Lennox knows all about that unfortunately but he righted both of those.  8)


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: charlo on June 17, 2009, 06:18:14 PM
would love to see haye do the job and really liven the division up but just can't seem to get away from the thought that vitali would have too much for him.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: G-man on June 17, 2009, 06:29:41 PM
I hope that Haye wins - he's exciting and has a great attitude but i just can't see it. I wasn't overly impressed against Monte Barrett who is really only a gatekeeper and was probably past any peak he may have had anyway.

I'd like to ask the people talking about Haye's speed and movement being a factor in which fights he's ever really shown much movement or awkwardness? to me Haye is a power puncher with quick hands not the second coming of Pernell Whitaker.

Klitschko won't struggle to find him at all IMO.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Skav on June 17, 2009, 06:37:09 PM
In relatiopn to that who has Haye fought? Who will remember Fragomeni, Mormeck or Enzo when it comes to it? Surely the cruisers are just as big a joke if not moreso?

Yeah, I agree. But he, at least, was the first Cruiser to unify the division which I feel is really overlooked.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Alvy on June 17, 2009, 06:52:07 PM
Yeah, I agree. But he, at least, was the first Cruiser to unify the division which I feel is really overlooked.

Holyfield did it first mate ;)

(And then O'Neil Bell)


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: WelshDevilRob on June 17, 2009, 07:09:13 PM
VK and WK may knock out everyone they step into the ring with but who have they fought? The heavyweight division is a joke right now.

I would hardly call Foreman's record a win some/lose some. Have you forgotten he became the oldest heavyweight champ in history?

The media wouldn't ignore the heavyweights if they had rivals but there are none.

Exactly. Some common sense.

Best name on Vitali's record is the semi-retired, out of shape (Career heaviest), 37 year old Lennox Lewis... and Vitali hit him with the kitchen sink and couldn't floor him let alone beat the oldman. If a prime Vitali can't beat that version of Lennox he is not going to beat anyother - theres the reality check.
Vitali also quits against 210lb 6ft Chris Byrd. Byrd was destroyed a year earlier by Ike Ibeabuchi. His injury was bad but it was the same injury that Danny Williams fought on with against Potter and won - It's called heart.



Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: WelshDevilRob on June 17, 2009, 07:11:51 PM
This is a complete misrepresentation of what really happened in the Wlad/Rahman fight. Rahman was beaten and battered and bruised for 7 rounds until the ref stepped in and saved him. Wlad looked every bit the World Champion he is in that fight. Rahman barely landed a glove on him for those 7 rounds.

Thats cos Rahman was washed-up as a legit contender. Tell it like it is - not what fits your theory.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: jimjack on June 17, 2009, 07:40:52 PM
Lots of insults and misquotes.   I don't need group think or group support. Jealousy, jealousy, jealousy. That's all you know.  Boxing in general has less viewship. Think a little. There is so much more to entertain ourselves with than 30 years ago let alone 80 years ago. It's called competition. There is so much more than boxing these days. By the way, those people in Germany that bought all those tickets, who do you think they are? Haye fans? Ha! No, they know Haye is a louse and they wanted to watch first hand how Wladimir was going to almost murder him. Haye sold a few thousand on his own in England. So much for English loving him. Now Hatton and Calzaghe, they are another story and actually have fans not just people in the media who love them. Watch the HBO highlight reel on Eastside boxing right now of WK and you'll see a real fighter. You probably were not old enough to see Holmes fight but as I said he mostly dined on his jab alone against real weaklings but those are the type of facts I was talking about.


Firstly can you show me where i quoted you, let alone misquoted.
Secondly didn't understand the second sentence, not sure you do.
Thirdly, i was taking into account the fact boxing as a whole has diminsihed, but look at the smaller weights that are still drawing ppv numbers and crowds. Why has the pinacle of the sport failed to keep up with the smaller weights, imo because of the dirth of talent in it. You mention Larry Holmes as though he can possible be compared to these neandethals, but although Holmes didn't have the sternest competition to defend his title against he still managed to keep the publics interest in the HW title because of his supreme ability. I suggest you go back and watch his jab and compare it to the brothers grim - infact dont bother as they are incomparable.
Finally as much as this may upset you, the best thing that can happen the HW boxing is seeing Haye or someone like him put both of the brothers in retirement (and not through bruised hands like Lennox).


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Maple Leaf on June 17, 2009, 08:36:03 PM
Thats cos Rahman was washed-up as a legit contender. Tell it like it is - not what fits your theory.

I said he used more than his jab and threw many, many power punches at him. I told it like it is. Go watch the fight for yourself. Wlad. and his brother fight everyone and anyone that will sign. They beat them all with relative ease because they are that much better than the rest.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: WelshDevilRob on June 17, 2009, 08:41:46 PM
I said he used more than his jab and threw many, many power punches at him. I told it like it is. Go watch the fight for yourself. Wlad. and his brother fight everyone and anyone that will sign. They beat them all with relative ease because they are that much better than the rest.

I know you hate steroid users, Maple Leaf. Your comments in the past on Mosley have been scathing. That's why I find it puzzling that you support Vitali.

Have you read Vitali's book that he released in 2004, where he admits to using steroids? Don't take my word for it - read his words/book. Truly shocking.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Maple Leaf on June 17, 2009, 09:04:05 PM
Firstly can you show me where i quoted you, let alone misquoted.
Secondly didn't understand the second sentence, not sure you do.
Thirdly, i was taking into account the fact boxing as a whole has diminsihed, but look at the smaller weights that are still drawing ppv numbers and crowds. Why has the pinacle of the sport failed to keep up with the smaller weights, imo because of the dirth of talent in it. You mention Larry Holmes as though he can possible be compared to these neandethals, but although Holmes didn't have the sternest competition to defend his title against he still managed to keep the publics interest in the HW title because of his supreme ability. I suggest you go back and watch his jab and compare it to the brothers grim - infact dont bother as they are incomparable.
Finally as much as this may upset you, the best thing that can happen the HW boxing is seeing Haye or someone like him put both of the brothers in retirement (and not through bruised hands like Lennox).


Group think refers to where your opinions come from.
Heavyweight boxing draws big crowds in Germany where it is promoted and nonesense and falsehoods are not repeated over and over.
Homes would make a good small heavy today. His chin was ok but not great and his power was poor -as would be expected from his body type. Yes, he had a good jab but against men bigger than him that could hit him from a distance he wasn't so dominant, not so good.  He struggled against a weak minded Cooney and later lost two fights to M. Spinks -a thin, wee heavy who could jab too.  Spinks knocked out Cooney in 5. So much for Holmes.... Neither Spinks, nor Cooney, nor Holmes would beat Vitali. Vitali would put them all to rest.
And I know it aches and your heart breaks to think your supermen are not what you thought they were but Eastern Giants own and are going to own the division from now on or until those countries get a middle class. It is factual to say there are millions of really big men in Eastern Europe and more than any other part in the world.
As for Haye it is just a question of which heavyweight will send him back to the cruiserweights because he is like Arlovski in that he has no chin.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Skav on June 17, 2009, 09:15:15 PM
Holyfield did it first mate ;)

(And then O'Neil Bell)

argh. yeah i did mean the first since holyfield.  ;D


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Skav on June 17, 2009, 09:22:55 PM
I said he used more than his jab and threw many, many power punches at him. I told it like it is. Go watch the fight for yourself. Wlad. and his brother fight everyone and anyone that will sign. They beat them all with relative ease because they are that much better than the rest.

Which isn't saying much when you look at the heavyweight scene.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: jimjack on June 17, 2009, 10:31:44 PM
Group think refers to where your opinions come from.
Heavyweight boxing draws big crowds in Germany where it is promoted and nonesense and falsehoods are not repeated over and over.
Homes would make a good small heavy today. His chin was ok but not great and his power was poor -as would be expected from his body type. Yes, he had a good jab but against men bigger than him that could hit him from a distance he wasn't so dominant, not so good.  He struggled against a weak minded Cooney and later lost two fights to M. Spinks -a thin, wee heavy who could jab too.  Spinks knocked out Cooney in 5. So much for Holmes.... Neither Spinks, nor Cooney, nor Holmes would beat Vitali. Vitali would put them all to rest.
And I know it aches and your heart breaks to think your supermen are not what you thought they were but Eastern Giants own and are going to own the division from now on or until those countries get a middle class. It is factual to say there are millions of really big men in Eastern Europe and more than any other part in the world.
As for Haye it is just a question of which heavyweight will send him back to the cruiserweights because he is like Arlovski in that he has no chin.

I make up my own mind on fighters - sometimes wrong, sometimes right.
We cant ever prove if a prime Holmes would have beaten Vitali, but I cant see many people siding with your view to be honest. I think more like Holmes' nickname would have a double meaning if this fight ever took place. I would say that even the majority of the mediocre HW of the 80's that Tyson used as cannon fodder (Tucker, Smith, Biggs, Berbick, Thomas) would have taken all the current champs apart on the same night. As for what Tyson would have done to them doesn't bear thinking about. I'm not saying the past HW were supermen, but for my money the current crop of HW will be soon forgotten as a sorry era for boxing. Boring, static, amateurs.


Title: Re: David Haye Vs Vitali Klitschko Who wins and how??
Post by: Maple Leaf on June 18, 2009, 12:51:29 AM
I know you hate steroid users, Maple Leaf. Your comments in the past on Mosley have been scathing. That's why I find it puzzling that you support Vitali.

Have you read Vitali's book that he released in 2004, where he admits to using steroids? Don't take my word for it - read his words/book. Truly shocking.

From what I have read about Vitali, he took steroids as an amateur and payed for it by losing his chance to compete in the Olympics where he would have probably won a medal -if not gold. If you have followed his pro career he hardly looks like a roider. I do not support anyone taking PEDs. I doubt he used anything as a pro as he has shown no evidence of it.

Since you brought up the subject, steroids add longevity to an athletes' career.  Holyfield is a known user; Hopkins is a suspected user. Do you notice any similarities? Bruno and especially  Briggs were suspected users. You know about Toney and his 1 year suspension. That was the same Toney that once said he was going to "beat all of those Russians". Yeah right. I wonder how Haye was ripped at 200 and equally ripped at 220 some months later? Roy Jones Jr. was a known user and fought John Ruiz to prove how usefull the drugs can be. However we saw how without the drug enhancements Jones just didn't cut it anymore and a whistle clean -and aged- Calzaghe burned him up with speed. I wonder just how fast Calzaghe would have been with the use of steroids. His televised fights would have had to be shown in slow motion to allow viewers to see the punches at normal speed.  ;)

I justify my appreciation for the greatness of Vitali in recognition that he made the mistake as an amateur, payed for it, and freely admits it. However, NONE of the fighters mentioned above have ever admitted to using banned substances. Even Toney denies it!