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Boxing Boards => Worldwide Boxing Discussion => Topic started by: lurkyshaka on May 29, 2017, 05:17:32 PM



Title: Without the eye going??
Post by: lurkyshaka on May 29, 2017, 05:17:32 PM
Would Spence have beaten Brook?

Obviously we'll never know and in all fairness one of Spence's punches caused the injury.....but it was still a freaky type of injury that you can't really account for and don't expect. But that injury was the key turning point for me.

Until that point Spence was putting up a very good effort, but what he was doing wasn't working. He was behind and Brook looked to be putting his foot down and pushing on.

Then the injury occurred and the fight changed. I didn't see a situation where Spence changed his approach and/or did anything different, just that Brook was suddenly a compromised fighter with a bad injury.

Without it....I think Brook would have ran out a comfortable winner, either by late stoppage himself or clear decision. Nothing against Spence who seems a nice enough guy, but I don't like the way this has been built into a story where he systematically broke Brook down and did a number on him.....when it simply wasn't like that.

Thoughts?


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: Dexter_Morgan on May 29, 2017, 05:39:30 PM
Would Spence have beaten Brook?

Obviously we'll never know and in all fairness one of Spence's punches caused the injury.....but it was still a freaky type of injury that you can't really account for and don't expect. But that injury was the key turning point for me.

Until that point Spence was putting up a very good effort, but what he was doing wasn't working. He was behind and Brook looked to be putting his foot down and pushing on.

Then the injury occurred and the fight changed. I didn't see a situation where Spence changed his approach and/or did anything different, just that Brook was suddenly a compromised fighter with a bad injury.

Without it....I think Brook would have ran out a comfortable winner, either by late stoppage himself or clear decision. Nothing against Spence who seems a nice enough guy, but I don't like the way this has been built into a story where he systematically broke Brook down and did a number on him.....when it simply wasn't like that.

Thoughts?

I don't agree with you at all. I thought Brook looked flat and sluggish from the first bell his punching lacked the crisp sharpness we have come to expect and he was struggling to force the fight. He was responding rather than taking charge of the contest. I had it 4-2 to spence after the 6th round. I watched it back yesterday to see if I was being harsh and I wasn't Kell just wasn't in the fight.

After the 8th round he went back to his corner and said he was done ( looked that way ) and Ingle spent the minute trying to convince him he was in the fight. The injury was supposed to have happened during the 7th round however during the corner work after the 8th no ice pack was placed on the eye. Now I don't know the treatment for this sort of injury however I would have thought numbing it would have helped.

I have read the other thread and you have to look at the contest objectively and Kell just struggled from the get go he clearly can't make that weight now and it really showed during the fight. If you look at the GGG fight he objects to being pulled out when you look at the fight from Saturday night he's physically exhausted. To answer your question the result would have been the same regardless of the injury he came up against a very good fighter.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: GOD on May 29, 2017, 05:42:24 PM
Would Spence have beaten Brook?

Obviously we'll never know and in all fairness one of Spence's punches caused the injury.....but it was still a freaky type of injury that you can't really account for and don't expect. But that injury was the key turning point for me.

Until that point Spence was putting up a very good effort, but what he was doing wasn't working. He was behind and Brook looked to be putting his foot down and pushing on.

Then the injury occurred and the fight changed. I didn't see a situation where Spence changed his approach and/or did anything different, just that Brook was suddenly a compromised fighter with a bad injury.

Without it....I think Brook would have ran out a comfortable winner, either by late stoppage himself or clear decision. Nothing against Spence who seems a nice enough guy, but I don't like the way this has been built into a story where he systematically broke Brook down and did a number on him.....when it simply wasn't like that.

Thoughts?

By the fight stoppage, Spence was up on all the judge's scorecards...by 5, 3 and 1 rounds

I thought he was putting in some really good work early doors with respect to targeting Brook's body, I think that work was going under the radar because to Brook's credit, he was catching Spence with some impressive head shots and was pushing him back every now and again, but that body work clearly took its toll, as seen later on in the fight...

Spence was not at his best, whereas that was probably the best performance I've seen from Brook...Spence was fighting overseas, Brook was fighting in his homeland, and on top of that, in his hometown...yet Spence still beat him, and the scorecards show he was going to beat him regardless.

I think we've seen the birth of the next star in boxing. Not saying he's the next Mayweather, but I would not be surprised if he goes on to become the next Marvin Hagler but of the Welterweight division. I think that will be Spence's toughest fight in terms of calibre of opposition in combination with the other circumstances in terms of a long layoff and fighting overseas.

Big credit to both fighters, top level boxing on both sides


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: legs on May 29, 2017, 05:58:47 PM
It's very difficult to say with any certainty I had the fight very tight up until the 6th round like most people the rounds were so close they could have been 10-10 rounds.

The eye was the main issue without doubt Brook knew he had a big problem as he just did nothing from the 6th round onwards he is a brave guy that is not in question.

Spence deserves huge credit one for taking the fight and also for agreeing to fight in the UK as Americans generally don't like to travel.

I hope Kell recovers from this but it is a mental issue now for him if he can overcome that I wouldn't be surprised to see him fight Spence again at 154ibs.

Spence now has some big fights Thurman depending on his injury and 12 months or so down the line Terrence Crawford maybe that would be an interesting fight.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: Gaz on May 29, 2017, 06:41:32 PM
I thought up til the eye injury it was close. Kell worked well with the counter jab and landed some decent straight rights to the body himself when Spence was supposed to be the killer body puncher in there. Spence always looked a threat if Kell were to ever switch off for a second and he produced a few nice flurries without putting any consistent pressure on Kell. BY halfway I probably would have just had Kell ahead due to his more eye catching scoring shots. I don't think you can make too much of a hard luck story out of the fight turning on the eye injury. The name of the game is to inflict damage as much as it is to hit and not get hit. It's a 12 round sport and this happened with plenty of time left in the fight and undoubtedly handed the initiative to Spence, but he created that turning point. He should be commended for that.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: lurkyshaka on May 29, 2017, 07:57:04 PM
I don't agree with you at all. I thought Brook looked flat and sluggish from the first bell his punching lacked the crisp sharpness we have come to expect and he was struggling to force the fight. He was responding rather than taking charge of the contest. I had it 4-2 to spence after the 6th round. I watched it back yesterday to see if I was being harsh and I wasn't Kell just wasn't in the fight.

After the 8th round he went back to his corner and said he was done ( looked that way ) and Ingle spent the minute trying to convince him he was in the fight. The injury was supposed to have happened during the 7th round however during the corner work after the 8th no ice pack was placed on the eye. Now I don't know the treatment for this sort of injury however I would have thought numbing it would have helped.

I have read the other thread and you have to look at the contest objectively and Kell just struggled from the get go he clearly can't make that weight now and it really showed during the fight. If you look at the GGG fight he objects to being pulled out when you look at the fight from Saturday night he's physically exhausted. To answer your question the result would have been the same regardless of the injury he came up against a very good fighter.

You're in the minority if you felt Brook wasn't in control of proceedings until the eye went. Most observers and both Sky and Showtime had him up. If you didn't feel that way not surprising you don't think the injury made a difference, butthe majority of people would disagree with you on how it was going until that point.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: lurkyshaka on May 29, 2017, 08:15:23 PM
Guess it shows just what a divisive fight this was.....when just on this thread some posters feel Brook had been fighting one of his finest fights, whilst another felt he'd looked poor.

Me personally I felt Brook was fighting a beautiful tactical fight. He was doing a good job of taking Spence jab away by coming over the top with his own, was threading the right hand through to both body and head and looked to back Spence up when Spence was trying to back off and catch a breather. It was nip and tuck but he was forging ahead for me and starting to bring the uppercuts and heavier artillery into play in the 6th. Spence looked dangerous in bursts so couldn't be taken for granted, but Brook was controlling the flow and direction of the fight. I thought it all looked very rosy.......but then the eye went and the fight got away from him.

Had we seen Spence grinding on Brook prior to the eye injury or landing a succession of hard shots over an extended period I'd be more willing to think that Spence actually turned the tide of the fight, but I don't think Spence really made any change or adjustments that turned things in his favour. I just think he landed a shot that bust Brook's eye and the rest is history.

Spence's immediate post fight comments would indicate he knew he hadn't shone and had struggled in the fight prior to Brook's injury.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: mooreman on May 29, 2017, 08:44:08 PM
I felt Brook was 4-2 up after 6 but never looked in control. He was counting on physicality and that was never going to be easy for twelve rounds. Spence came out firing in the 7th and had plenty of gas.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: lurkyshaka on May 29, 2017, 08:52:51 PM
I felt Brook was 4-2 up after 6 but never looked in control. He was counting on physicality and that was never going to be easy for twelve rounds. Spence came out firing in the 7th and had plenty of gas.

Control is probably too strong a word....especially given the fluid nature of boxing where both are trying to take charge and momentum often swings. Whilst Brook hadn't taken 'control' I think the fight was clearly going his way as the 6th round finished. As an observer I was feeling 'safer' for Brook with each passing round.....till the 7th when the eye injury apparently occurred. To be honest as I watched the 6th round wind down I was half kicking myself for not having had a little wager on Brook by second half stoppage win, because it seemed he was kicking on at that point and starting to get at Spence with heavier artillery.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: mooreman on May 29, 2017, 10:14:57 PM
Control is probably too strong a word....especially given the fluid nature of boxing where both are trying to take charge and momentum often swings. Whilst Brook hadn't taken 'control' I think the fight was clearly going his way as the 6th round finished. As an observer I was feeling 'safer' for Brook with each passing round.....till the 7th when the eye injury apparently occurred. To be honest as I watched the 6th round wind down I was half kicking myself for not having had a little wager on Brook by second half stoppage win, because it seemed he was kicking on at that point and starting to get at Spence with heavier artillery.

I would agree that I felt Brook would win after six rounds and also regretted not backing him!!

However, I do think in hindsight that Spence was always in the fight and landed solid shots from 1-6 without winning the rounds. I think the injury certainly had a huge effect on Brook and the resulting rounds but I still think that Spence started that seventh with gusto and Kell was always going to flag in the second half.

Without the eye injury, I still think there was massive potential of Spence grabbing 4/5 of the last six. I also think that Brook may have clung on as he had a lead. Another thing is I had a gut feeling throughout the fight that if Spence could hang on, he would have a chance to stop Kell late.

I guess the answer is we'll never know. I think your points are valid, Kell may well have seen it out without injury. I however think there was likelihood that Spence was always going to come on strong being the less experienced and pressured fighter as the fight wore on and he relaxed.

I suppose, you just have to say Spence was the better man on the night and walked away with a non controversial win away from home versus a good champ. That Brook was unlucky to get another terrible injury but that he can hold his head up and know he gave it everything in there. Maybe in 2 years they will rematch at 154....

Oh and One last thing....

Bellew is a massive bellend for the things he said post fight. He emptied his bag when Stephenson hit him and fought like a complete coward. Unlike Kell....


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: Scarface on May 30, 2017, 12:42:39 AM
What i don't understand is people stating that spence caused the injury as if he managed to do something special. Firstly i have not known spence to ever break a persons orbital bone before... not in the amateurs or professional ranks. Nether have i heard of GGG doing the same to his opponents.

So brook suffered punches that had the force to break bone yet not concussive enough to drop him.  To me that strikes me as bad luck.

Spence and GGG may well go onto KO'ing many opponents in the future but i doubt many of them will result in the bone breaking damage brook has endured twice.

What i am saying is that spence was not lucky that his punch landed successfully... as a boxer you are expected to land at some point. He was lucky in the effect that punch had on brook... a fragility... that was not the norm. Otherwise this sort of injury would be far more common and I don't think it is.

Prior to the fracture... brook had Spence under control. Spence was almost being reckless from frustration... simply being countered.

A footballer gets kicked in his leg and fowled week in week out by mis-timed tackles... however it is instantly considered terrible bad luck if it ends in a leg break or injury that puts him out of the match.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: GOD on May 30, 2017, 06:30:03 AM
Errol Spence body attack video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QfCqzqKg1Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QfCqzqKg1Y)


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: Driscoll on May 30, 2017, 06:51:12 AM
Did Nigel Benn suffer the same injury when he beat Gerald McLellan?


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: Tim2366 on May 30, 2017, 10:16:31 AM
Decent fight but clear that Brook was gassing pre injury. His punch out put was minimal and Spence was taking back the points he'd lost in previous rounds.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: lurkyshaka on May 31, 2017, 08:09:10 AM
Decent fight but clear that Brook was gassing pre injury. His punch out put was minimal and Spence was taking back the points he'd lost in previous rounds.

How can you claim that Tim when Brook had started to put Spence to the sword in the 6th?

Neither mans output was anything special, it was nip and tuck but Brook was controlling the terms much better till the injury occurred....hence him being up on the official cards, SKY, Showtimes, etc.

He'd fought the fight at a controlled, measured pace.....and his manner of fighting didn't change until the 7th round.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: lurkyshaka on May 31, 2017, 08:09:51 AM
Did Nigel Benn suffer the same injury when he beat Gerald McLellan?

No.....broken nose and broken jaw.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: lurkyshaka on May 31, 2017, 08:18:14 AM
What i don't understand is people stating that spence caused the injury as if he managed to do something special. Firstly i have not known spence to ever break a persons orbital bone before... not in the amateurs or professional ranks. Nether have i heard of GGG doing the same to his opponents.

So brook suffered punches that had the force to break bone yet not concussive enough to drop him.  To me that strikes me as bad luck.

Spence and GGG may well go onto KO'ing many opponents in the future but i doubt many of them will result in the bone breaking damage brook has endured twice.

What i am saying is that spence was not lucky that his punch landed successfully... as a boxer you are expected to land at some point. He was lucky in the effect that punch had on brook... a fragility... that was not the norm. Otherwise this sort of injury would be far more common and I don't think it is.

Prior to the fracture... brook had Spence under control. Spence was almost being reckless from frustration... simply being countered.

A footballer gets kicked in his leg and fowled week in week out by mis-timed tackles... however it is instantly considered terrible bad luck if it ends in a leg break or injury that puts him out of the match.

Think that's the thing for me as well......it was a freaky type of injury.

Now if I'd seen Spence turn the tables prior I'd be more willing to think that Spence had already taken over....but he was losing the fight and coming under increasing fire, right until Brook suffered the injury.

What irritates me now....is the story will simply be that Spence broke Brook down and stopped him. But I didn't see much breaking down happening for Spence 'until' Brook's eye went in what is a strange, and relatively rare type of injury.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: Tim2366 on May 31, 2017, 08:36:07 AM
How can you claim that Tim when Brook had started to put Spence to the sword in the 6th?

Neither mans output was anything special, it was nip and tuck but Brook was controlling the terms much better till the injury occurred....hence him being up on the official cards, SKY, Showtimes, etc.

He'd fought the fight at a controlled, measured pace.....and his manner of fighting didn't change until the 7th round.

When exactly do you think the injury took place? To me I had Brook winning but his out put then dwindled and he went onto the back foot....looked to be pre injury to me.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: lurkyshaka on May 31, 2017, 09:36:15 AM
When exactly do you think the injury took place? To me I had Brook winning but his out put then dwindled and he went onto the back foot....looked to be pre injury to me.


I assumed the 7th, but quite a few people now think it might have actually happened during the 6th....which was a round where Brook was clearly getting on top of Spence, which highlights again what a freak fight changing occurrence it was.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: Tim2366 on May 31, 2017, 09:52:50 AM
I assumed the 7th, but quite a few people now think it might have actually happened during the 6th....which was a round where Brook was clearly getting on top of Spence, which highlights again what a freak fight changing occurrence it was.


Can't recall Brook struggling with the eye at all until the 11th....will have to watch the fight back sometime but I thought the pace got to him way before the injury did.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: Dexter_Morgan on May 31, 2017, 12:42:20 PM
I thought the injury happened during the 7th round however a world championship fight is 12 rounds and in the end he was exhausted. I have watched back the fight again. I still have it 4-2 Spence after six but I wouldn't argue to much with 3-3. I have Brook taking the first and 6th from that.

The point of boxing is to be hit without being hit we all know that in this fight Brook sustained an injury from blows not an accidental clash of heads, if he feels hard done by then I would have expected him to be asking for an immediate rematch he isn't or I might have missed it? 

The fight without the injury has the same outcome.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: jimjack on May 31, 2017, 02:13:14 PM
Without the eye injury I think Brook loses on the cards.
He wouldn't have worked hard enough to win the later rounds IMO. My thoughts before the fight were the same, the eye injury just unravelled him rather than having him slowed down and beaten on points.
Brook won the first half of the fight but couldn't get Spence out of there, he was always going to struggle late on.

I'm not buying the hype on spence either, he's good but not great. Timothy Bradley part 2.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: lurkyshaka on May 31, 2017, 05:51:00 PM
When exactly do you think the injury took place? To me I had Brook winning but his out put then dwindled and he went onto the back foot....looked to be pre injury to me.



His eye was a problem much earlier than that.....they were talking about it in the corner, with Brook saying that he thought 'it'd happened again' and Ingle trying to calm him down and telling him to just keep boxing as he had been doing successfully earlier. Obviously that was easier said than done with that injury.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: lurkyshaka on May 31, 2017, 06:08:02 PM
I thought the injury happened during the 7th round however a world championship fight is 12 rounds and in the end he was exhausted. I have watched back the fight again. I still have it 4-2 Spence after six but I wouldn't argue to much with 3-3. I have Brook taking the first and 6th from that.

The point of boxing is to be hit without being hit we all know that in this fight Brook sustained an injury from blows not an accidental clash of heads, if he feels hard done by then I would have expected him to be asking for an immediate rematch he isn't or I might have missed it? 

The fight without the injury has the same outcome.

Its the type of injury it is and when it occurred that's the crux of it. Its not a common or expected injury and it happened at a time when Brook was more than just in the fight. He was getting the best of it....on the official cards, with SKY, Showtime and most observers.

Had he been struggling prior to the injury it'd not really be relevant, but he fighting well and had showed no stamina/conditioning issues....till his eye went. A rematch would be great but Brook will be off for some time healing and there was no rematch clause. Plus he won't drag himself down to 47 again. He'll return at 154 and be better for the added poundage.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: bigbibbs on August 14, 2017, 10:41:05 AM
Old news I know but yes spence would have won either way.
Brook suddenly fell apart even before the punches that caused the damage.
He took a while to get going but when he did he switched gears and caused brook problems.


Title: Re: Without the eye going??
Post by: lurkyshaka on August 14, 2017, 11:52:05 AM
Old news I know but yes spence would have won either way.
Brook suddenly fell apart even before the punches that caused the damage.
He took a while to get going but when he did he switched gears and caused brook problems.

Sorry mate but that's just not true.....quite the reverse in fact, Brook was actually enjoying his best moments when the eye went.
The fight fell away after he suffered the injury, before that he was doing fine and was ahead on the cards too.