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[stephen thompson]

I'll try and go through this in order.

Thommo - I can't agree with you that him being offside makes it ok. You're effectively saying two wrongs make a right - pretty sure there's a saying contrary to that.

middleweight - what a load of shite."your opinion isn't valid" - laughable, unsubstantiated bollocks. My opinion is no more or less valid than anybody's on here. In fact scratch that, it's more valid than yours because he absolutely, definitely was out of position and I can see that and you can't. And I'm the wind up merchant ..........

7's - I think this has been a great tournament but the biggest losers so far have been most of the pundits. They make me pine for Martin Tyler and Gary Neville, whether it's Jon Champion or Clive Tyldesley talking bollocks or Lawrenson laughing at his own jokes.

Carragher has been decent but Lineker has become a parody of himself. He, Hansen and Lawrenson are just too secure in their positions and too smug. They don't really tell you anything about the game in the way that Neville does and Andy Gray used to before he lost it.

On England, perversely I'm quite enjoying it. Last night was pretty crap but we are very organised, we're playing to a plan and his use of substitutes is good.

He took over 6 weeks before a tournament, lost one of his first choice centre-backs, first choice midfielders and has had his best player out for the first 2 games - and that's before you talk about Wilshere. He's also taken over a squad low in confidence which, and let's make no bones about this, is absolutely awful at retaining possession and has a squad of players brought up in a league which is ill-suited for developing people for international football. The Premier League is fast and exciting but losing the ball isn't massive because you'll likely get it back again soon against most teams. Even the smaller teams in this tournament keep the ball really well- Ukraine, Croatia - whereas our players have 1, maybe 2 options when they get a pass.

Last night we looked so strung out, players running away from the man with the ball rather than keeping possession and moving it round the pitch. That then leaves people trying more expansive passing or long diagonals and you end up losing the ball again and again.

So on that basis I think Hodgson has done a bloody good job. It's not been Brazil 70 stuff but given the timescales and factors against him it's well above expectations. And we have a plan - I can't stress that enough - I still could not tell you what Capello's plan was, or McClaren's or Sven's. The last Emgland manager to have a plan was probably Glenn Hoddle.

Some horrible things have been said about Hodgson by the media and Liverpool fans - that he's a poor manager, that he doesn't know how to manage big players - but it seems to me people didn't like him for two things that he's not. At Liverpool because he's not Kenny Dalglish and at England because he's not Harry Redknapp. I still expect him to get spat up and chewed out by the job (most of them do) but for now I'm pleased a good man, and a massive patriot let's not forget, is getting results.

If we'd gone out - with next to no time to prepare and the squad we have - and tried to play attacking, expansive football I'm not convinced we'd qualify from the group. Can you imagine taking France on ina football match with Parker or Milner in your midfield? Carnage. And you can say "pick Ox or Walcott" but they are still just kids, it's a huge, huge ask. You can only play the hand you're dealt and Hodgson is playing his pretty well so far.

 Wasn't going for the two wrongs make a right. Was pointing out that the furor over the 'goal' is not warranted and everyone is looking past the fact that the passage of play should have been stopped well before Ukraine got a shot on goal.
 The goal or no goal is a non issue, the un called offside wouldn't make a good story though would it?

[Drake]

Even though England haven't played great football I'm sure most fans would rather win as we have with the team we've got.  Imagine being a Dutch fan and seeing them leave the tournament bottom of their group without a point.

Yep! the dutch could do with 2 banks of 4 in the next tournie. Total football my arse. 

[jimjack]

Some questions for everyone

Despite the success so far and even topping the group, have you enjoyed watching us play?

Do you honestly think teams would be fearful of playing us?

Does it matter if we win the tournament?

1) I have enjoyed watching us play, but that is mainly because it's England and I have an interest.
If it were another side playing the way we have then probably not ... scratch that, certainly not.

2) I think sides will prefer to play a team that has played better but looked easier to score against. No one likes to play a side who starts a game wanting to not lose.

3) Personally if we do (which we wont) win the whole thing I think it will matter. England will have that 40+ year monkey off the back and it will kick start a great summer of sport in the UK. I would hope it would bring some of the feel good factor back into the country which we experiened during the Jubillee also.
I see what you mean though, will people simply say... 'we won by playing boring shit football' but then again who is to say what is 'proper football' and what isnt. The objective is to win in any game and finding a way to do that, if you do it differently from what the purists would have you believe is the correct way does it make it wrong?
A few years ago a bloke called Dick Fosbury found a way of winning by being different to the rest.

[Drake]

A few years ago a bloke called Dick Fosbury found a way of winning by being different to the rest.

Just one problem with that theory mate - we're not different from the rest - Greece did it first! 

[Socrates]

People won't like this, but England and Hodgson are actually adopting the new trend at the top level- reactive football.

Tika Taka was the new way but sitting deep and breaking is apparently the new "in" thing - see Chelsea in the Champs League.

[Tuco]

People won't like this, but England and Hodgson are actually adopting the new trend at the top level- reactive football.

Tika Taka was the new way but sitting deep and breaking is apparently the new "in" thing - see Chelsea in the Champs League.

In other words ''reactive football' - designed for the inferior and less talented to play against the superior and talented, with a degree of success.

Doesn't say much for England then does it.

[Brick Top]

In other words ''reactive football' - designed for the inferior and less talented to play against the superior and talented, with a degree of success.

Doesn't say much for England then does it.

What else do you want? We are inferior and less talented than a lot of teams in the tournament, we just have a habit of downplaying opponents ability

[whieldon]

In other words ''reactive football' - designed for the inferior and less talented to play against the superior and talented, with a degree of success.

Doesn't say much for England then does it.

doesn't have to say much if it means winning

[jimjack]

Just one problem with that theory mate - we're not different from the rest - Greece did it first! 

It was more a point regarding people who say we are not playing football in the 'right way'. The right way in any sport is the one that wins. Dick Fosbury was a perfect example of doing things the right way.

[jimjack]

@ Socrates
Offside not given = 1 wrong
Goal not given = 2 wrongs
Overall decision = right.
Therefore 2 wrongs can indeed make a right.

[tomstrong]

just a side note, if you have an iphone download 'New Star Soccer' its 69p for the full version and its brilliant!!! Don't blame me when it takes over your life 

[7777]

I don't watch enough of Liverpool to know about that, but from an outsider looking in it seemed to me he was never given a chance because the fans wanted Dalglish and he wasn't him. If that came across as a dig, apologies, wasn't intended as one.

The other thing I meant to mention - Steven Gerrard.

My big criticism of him in the past is that he plays like the best player in the schoolyard - charging about the pitch, trying Hollywood stuff, leaving gaps left, right and centre. I heard an interview with Arrigo Sacchi, who admittedly is massively inflexible when it comes to this stuff, saying Gerrard is a phenomenal athlete but doesn't have the brains to play to a tactical plan - bit harsh that, but I can see where he is coming from. Liverpool remodelled their team and played Alonso and Mascherano behind him because of it.

He's blown that to bits this tournament. He's played to a plan, been patient, kept his position and played for the team as well as providing that bit of individual magic we all know he can. There have been moments where he's lost it a bit and tried to ping passes 30 yards rather than keeping ball and as a result England have looked poor - the 10 minutes after France scored, first 20 minutes of 2nd half against Sweden. That just shows the impact he has on the team though and it wasn't just him, it was all the players around him. I've no doubt he does it to try and drive the team on and he's basically trying to hard to make things happen, but i've always felt you shouldn't force it - if there is nothing on don't try the Hollywood, keep ball, move it around and probe for angles and opportunities.

I didn't think Gerrard had this in his locker, particularly at his age, but fair play to him. That may well be that he hasn't got the legs to get around the pitch like he used to - I don't know to be honest - but it shows he thinks about his game and is much smarter than people give him credit for.

Had this very conversation with my old man the other night about Gerrard. I didn't think he had it in his locker either!

You ask the majority of Liverpool fans and they hate him playing Central Midfield, much prefer him further to the right or behind the forward where he was under Rafa, mainly because he causes the most damage there but also because he just isn't disciplined enough to play that role where sometimes you need to sit and just keep the ball moving and we lose balance because his natural instinct is to be Roy of the Rovers. Alonso was a genius at the midfield role, Lucas learned from him and I think Henderson will do very well at it but I'm massively pleased to see Stevie this tournament. I think Shearer had a point when he spoke about the captaincy making you feel ten feet tall and in the past he has never really been the proper captain and he really seems to be reveling in the role

Let's face it, he isn't the dynamic player he once was and is getting older but I think he has a few more years yet, he certainly won't have his legs go on him like Carra but he has shown if he does slow down, he has that other none Hollywood style in his locker too.

He also looks fit as a fiddle, as much as he has done in years, apparently Yoga has a big part to play but he hasn't played full seasons for a while so maybe he has just been doing stomach crunches!

(no homo)

3. Strange question - could have two meanings. Yes it matters to a lot of people if we win it. No it doesn't matter if we're boring as long as we win it.

At the end of day, if you asked everyone on this forum: hands up who thinks we can win the whole competition by playing expansive, attacking football, keeping possession and showing buckets of flair? Well? not one hand would go up.

It's just about putting facts ahead of any misplaced idealisms. It's called being pragmatic and uncle Roy is a master of it!!  

So yeah, sod it, I'd rather win ugly than get dicked playing the 'right' way.

I think Q3 was really based on what the first two answers were but mainly rhetoric. I don't think it does matter either. We're doing what we set out to do and thinking about it, we're Fulham in the Uefa Cup and Roy didn't fare to bad in that did he

[hoover]

Had this very conversation with my old man the other night about Gerrard. I didn't think he had it in his locker either!

You ask the majority of Liverpool fans and they hate him playing Central Midfield, much prefer him further to the right or behind the forward where he was under Rafa, mainly because he causes the most damage there but also because he just isn't disciplined enough to play that role where sometimes you need to sit and just keep the ball moving and we lose balance because his natural instinct is to be Roy of the Rovers. Alonso was a genius at the midfield role, Lucas learned from him and I think Henderson will do very well at it but I'm massively pleased to see Stevie this tournament. I think Shearer had a point when he spoke about the captaincy making you feel ten feet tall and in the past he has never really been the proper captain and he really seems to be reveling in the role

Let's face it, he isn't the dynamic player he once was and is getting older but I think he has a few more years yet, he certainly won't have his legs go on him like Carra but he has shown if he does slow down, he has that other none Hollywood style in his locker too.

He also looks fit as a fiddle, as much as he has done in years, apparently Yoga has a big part to play but he hasn't played full seasons for a while so maybe he has just been doing stomach crunches!

(no homo)



I think Q3 was really based on what the first two answers were but mainly rhetoric. I don't think it does matter either. We're doing what we set out to do and thinking about it, we're Fulham in the Uefa Cup and Roy didn't fare to bad in that did he

I can't read your post because that video clip in it is so annoying

[tomstrong]

I saw a video clip the other day of him in the swimming pool and thought he looked ripped! Glad to see him playing so well, and having the captains armband without JT trying to take over!

[Drake]

Christ lads - this thread's gone downhill faster than an overweight German skier

One minute we're talking football, the next it's decended in to an in depth analysis of the male torso, complete with gifs and swimming pool references.

I thought I'd stumbled on to the Heat magazine website by mistake!