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Baz88
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« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2011, 11:23:16 AM » |
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Lets be realistic here Red, we all know the Manfredo fight was to get Calzaghe more publicity over the pond due to his contender showings. Manfredo was a bigger name than Calzaghe in the states back then. He was also ranked top 10 in the world when Calzaghe fought him, bet a lot of people fail to remember that....
Also saying Calzaghe ducked Froch back then is really rose tinted, fair enough if Froch had been at the level he is now. To be honest its like saying Froch is ducking George Groves if Groves were to come out on sky sports and call him out. Its probably worse as Groves has a much higher profile than Froch did and the backing of sky tv.
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LiveFight
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« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2011, 11:23:16 AM » |
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deck
Global Moderator
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The Pittsburg Windmill
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« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2011, 11:40:42 AM » |
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I don't think that's a case of Brian thinking he'd lose to Carl but not Joe but more a case of not wanting to risk it against someone of Carl's potential at the time when a world title had been round the corner. |
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jaff_no1
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« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2011, 11:52:53 AM » |
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Spot on mate. There was no time when it was right for Joe to even contemplate fighting Carl. He never ducked him, they were never in the same category (by that I mean world level) at the same time. By the time Carl had got himself into number one contender status Joe had moved up to light heavy and had just beaten B Hop. And if everyone is being honest who would you have your last fight against a relative unknown, at the time, not screened anywhere but the UK or against a legend at the greatest arena in the World, in the most famous city in the World, broadcast all over the World?
With regards to fighting again in Wales in front of 55k at the Millenium he had already had his crowning night there against the "unbeaten dangerman" Mikkel Kessler and being crowned undisputed super middleweight champion of the World.
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Red
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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2011, 12:10:48 PM » |
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With regards to fighting again in Wales in front of 55k at the Millenium he had already had his crowning night there against the "unbeaten dangerman" Mikkel Kessler and being crowned undisputed super middleweight champion of the World.
Jaffa, it's because FW had it tied up with an exclusive deal, like the MEN in manchester when Hatton left. It was explored but they were shit out of luck on that one. |
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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2011, 12:10:48 PM » |
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G-man
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« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2011, 01:11:23 PM » |
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Lets be realistic here Red, we all know the Manfredo fight was to get Calzaghe more publicity over the pond due to his contender showings. Manfredo was a bigger name than Calzaghe in the states back then. He was also ranked top 10 in the world when Calzaghe fought him, bet a lot of people fail to remember that....
I'm pretty impartial when it comes to Calzaghe but i've never bought into this theory. Calzaghe was universally recognised as no.1 when he trounced Lacy - everyone saw it the world over. Manfredo's ranking is irrelevant and if he was top 10, it was absurd considering he'd only beaten Joey Spina and Scott Pemberton at the weight. It was a money-making exercise IMO with the 'profile' angle a weak cover story. Also, if it was to raise his profile in the States, then why did he follow it up by fighting another European on home soil? |
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DNO
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« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2011, 01:25:31 PM » |
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I'm a fan of both. When it comes down to it, when both of their careers are over, Carl will walk away the happier man. He will have left no stone unturned and known that he gave it his all. I don't think Joe can ever say that to himself. He never truly tested his limits in his prime and will be regretting that now. He was a great boxer and could perhaps have stretched his legacy even further. He beat Hopkins fair and square, a man who's still dominating at light heavy. If only Joe had had the self belief in himself to go out and impose himself on the US ten years ago.
Tremendous post. IQ The sad thing is, Joe had more than enough to beat the fighters he avoided (for whatever reasons) pretty handily (excluding a prime Jones Jr. at 168). |
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The Return of 'The Hitman' - 24/11/2012.
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Baz88
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« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2011, 02:00:48 PM » |
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Tremendous post. IQ
The sad thing is, Joe had more than enough to beat the fighters he avoided (for whatever reasons) pretty handily (excluding a prime Jones Jr. at 168).
Excluding Jones and Glen Johnson who did he avoid? The fights with Bhop and Ottke couldnt be made. |
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Baz88
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« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2011, 02:06:49 PM » |
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I'm pretty impartial when it comes to Calzaghe but i've never bought into this theory. Calzaghe was universally recognised as no.1 when he trounced Lacy - everyone saw it the world over. Manfredo's ranking is irrelevant and if he was top 10, it was absurd considering he'd only beaten Joey Spina and Scott Pemberton at the weight. It was a money-making exercise IMO with the 'profile' angle a weak cover story.
Also, if it was to raise his profile in the States, then why did he follow it up by fighting another European on home soil?
The fight on European soil that you refer to was a unification match up against Kessler infront of 55000 at the millenium stadium to be fair, and straight after that he secured big money fights against Bhop and Jones, the big two Americans around the weight. Fair enough Manfredo was a no risk/high reward fight and adds nothing to your legacy, but considering he'd fought Lacy in a unification and Bika before that and Kessler in a unification and Bhop for the ring magazine light heavy strap in his first fightin America straight after it doesnt sound so bad. |
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DNO
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« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2011, 02:39:34 PM » |
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Excluding Jones and Glen Johnson who did he avoid? The fights with Bhop and Ottke couldnt be made.
Any fighter who held a title at 168 whilst he was defending against the likes of Evans Ashira, Tocker Pudwill, Kabary Salem, Miguel Jimenez, David Starie, Rick Thornberry etc. The likes of Markuz Beyer, Danny Green, Eric Lucas, Cristian Sanavia, Manny Siaca, Kelly Pavlik etc. Jermain Taylor and Winky Wright would have also been much better than the opposition he defended his title against (excluding the late unification fight). I do not solely blame Joe for these fights not happening as ******, the opposition, networks, alphabet organisations are equally to blame, but he rarely went out of his way to really challenge other elite fighters the way Hatton and Froch have in recent years, and that is a real shame, because like I mentioned previously, he had the beating of the vast majority, if not all of them. |
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The Return of 'The Hitman' - 24/11/2012.
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LiveFight
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« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2011, 02:39:34 PM » |
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Baz88
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« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2011, 02:44:55 PM » |
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Any fighter who held a title at 168 whilst he was defending against the likes of Evans Ashira, Tocker Pudwill, Kabary Salem, Miguel Jimenez, David Starie, Rick Thornberry etc.
The likes of Markuz Beyer, Danny Green, Eric Lucas, Cristian Sanavia, Manny Siaca, Kelly Pavlik etc.
Jermain Taylor and Winky Wright would have also been much better than the opposition he defended his title against (excluding the late unification fight).
I do not solely blame Joe for these fights not happening as ******, the opposition, networks, alphabet organisations are equally to blame, but he rarely went out of his way to really challenge other elite fighters the way Hatton and Froch have in recent years, and that is a real shame, because like I mentioned previously, he had the beating of the vast majority, if not all of them.
He knocked out Byron Mitchell in 2 rounds who had, one fight previously, lost a disputed split decision to Ottke in a unification fight whilst the current wba belt holder. Thats a more meaningful fight than many of the fights you mention and was an attempt to force a fight with Ottke who was the wba/ibf champ. Credit is rarely ever given for this. |
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deck
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The Pittsburg Windmill
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« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2011, 04:06:52 PM » |
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Taylor, Wright and Pavlik were all middleweights.
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Red
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« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2011, 04:14:59 PM » |
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Taylor, Wright and Pavlik were all middleweights.
And Evans Ashira was a light-middleweight. He boxed after 'reigning' for a decade. It would be like Froch fighting .... I dont know, can anyone name a 25th+ ranked light middleweight that nobody has ever heard of and has also just been KTFO ?  |
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Tim2366
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« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2011, 06:28:35 PM » |
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Frochs cv is better than Calzaghes....end of. Yes he lost to Kessler but he went to the guys backyard for that fight. In Atlantic city I spoke to an american soldier, sed he watched the fight with his mates and they fort Froch got robbed(duno if I agree with that but shows how debatable the decision was) Think the key fact is that Froch has fought the best posible opponents over and over while Calzaghe just didnt.
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The_Answer
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« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2011, 08:08:06 PM » |
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Lets be realistic here Red, we all know the Manfredo fight was to get Calzaghe more publicity over the pond due to his contender showings. Manfredo was a bigger name than Calzaghe in the states back then. He was also ranked top 10 in the world when Calzaghe fought him, bet a lot of people fail to remember that....
Also saying Calzaghe ducked Froch back then is really rose tinted, fair enough if Froch had been at the level he is now. To be honest its like saying Froch is ducking George Groves if Groves were to come out on sky sports and call him out. Its probably worse as Groves has a much higher profile than Froch did and the backing of sky tv.
And in Wales  |
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 HBO pre fight Max Kellerman : I can't help but feel Kirkland is being fed to Angulo |
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deno
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« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2011, 08:23:24 PM » |
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I think calzaghe,s is slightly better at the moment. Anyone can pick holes in both records. What happens if Froch loses to ward then loses a re match to kessler which a very good possibility. Froch still needs to beat a world title
holder to get their belt. If he beats ward. Then that changes things loads , I do honestly think he is going to pick up a few losses on the bounce now. I hope I'm wrong
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