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[Baz88]

Miranda, Kessler, Abraham, Bika, Green, Froch.

You'll struggle to top those names off Calzaghes record.

Undefeated Kessler and Hopkins. Topped if im honest. The likes of Byron Mitchell, Lacy, Eubank and Reid were a much sterner test than Miranda and Abraham at smw. Froch is a decent name but hes now been beaten every time he stepped up to the best two in the division and scraped by Dirrell.

[Tim2366]

by the way you mention the same miranda that was sparked how many times?

calzaghe beat sakio bika who off the top of my head was probably a much sterner test than edison.

Ward beat Bika aswell

[Brick Top]

Undefeated Kessler and Hopkins. Topped if im honest. The likes of Byron Mitchell, Lacy, Eubank and Reid were a much sterner test than Miranda and Abraham at smw. Froch is a decent name but hes now been beaten every time he stepped up to the best two in the division and scraped by Dirrell.

Hmm the undefeated tag makes Kessler much better than if he had 2 hands your right. Eubank was coming towards the end but not completely shot like some make out, good win fair enough, I thought Reid beat Calzaghe, Hopkins is knocking on and many thought he beat Joe. Jeff Lacy, what's he done since? Hype job.

To say Wards topped it is probably the wrong choice of words, but he's matched Joes best wins in a shorter period of time.

[presa]

I'm not knocking Calzaghes ability, you'll see earlier in the thread I think he would beat Ward but his record was shite. Alan Green may not be Marquee and Abraham was a middle, but they are better than the likes of Peter Manfredo. How are Joes notable wins, including scraping by an ancient B Hop, a one handed Kessler and a overhyped Lace better than what Wards achieved in a much shorter time frame.

ah behave the same hopkins that took apart kelly pavlik, and beaten various other big names? lol i will also add that joe was not young either.

sakio bika more danger than reward who imo is better than all the people wards faced except froch and kessler.

Calzaghe beat kessler when he was undefeated, lacey undefeated who at the time everone was picking to destroy old man joe, joe at 21 defeated and dropped eubank which imo was his shining moment, reid are all good  wins and better than a blown up middle, a non marquee fighter and two people who had already been beaten.

as someone mentioned earlier, if froch was undefeated by the time he met ward id be agreeing with you but right now as the value of the win would be so much higher.

not saying its like that all the time but it does take away some of the value for a win.

like when manny beat hatton and de la hoya, he never received as much credit because it was at a time when hatton was already at the end of his career and so was de la hoya respectively speaking.  

[Brick Top]

ah behave the same hopkins that took apart kelly pavlik, and beaten various other big names? lol i will also add that joe was not young either.

sakio bika more danger than reward who imo is better than all the people wards faced except froch and kessler.

Calzaghe beat kessler when he was undefeated, lacey undefeated who at the time everone was picking to destroy old man joe, joe at 21 defeated and dropped eubank which imo was his shining moment, reid are all good  wins and better than a blown up middle, a non marquee fighter and two people who had already been beaten.

as someone mentioned earlier, if froch was undefeated by the time he met ward id be agreeing with you but right now as the value of the win would be so much higher.

not saying its like that all the time but it does take away some of the value for a win.

like when manny beat hatton and de la hoya, he never received as much credit because it was at a time when hatton was already at the end of his career and so was de la hoya respectively speaking.  

You mean the same pavlik who was a career middleweight who Hopkins fought at a weight pavlik had no business at?

Why do you keep bringing up Bika, as I've pointed out earlier and Tim since, wards beaten him too

[presa]

i know typo on the bika thing.. as people had posted while writing it.

ive taken your point and yes maybe so ward has achieved quite alot in a short space of time, but he has beaten people who have already suffered defeat which kind of my point as to devalues the win slightly.

and yes i do mean the same pavlik.. off the top of my head people were also thinking it was an easy fight for pav with the extra weight etc.

and one thing that bugs the life out of me is people jumping over lacey saying hypejob all the time.. hindsight is 20/20.

no doubt you were one of the people who felt joe was going to lose as well.

 

[Stef]

On a good day Calzaghe wins handily on a bad day he loses. Thats the bare bones of it.

[Brick Top]

i know typo on the bika thing.. as people had posted while writing it.

ive taken your point and yes maybe so ward has achieved quite alot in a short space of time, but he has beaten people who have already suffered defeat which kind of my point as to devalues the win slightly.

and yes i do mean the same pavlik.. off the top of my head people were also thinking it was an easy fight for pav with the extra weight etc.

and one thing that bugs the life out of me is people jumping over lacey saying hypejob all the time.. hindsight is 20/20.

no doubt you were one of the people who felt joe was going to lose as well.

 

I wasn't one of those people who though Lacy would win because I hadn't seen a lot of him to be honest 

I'm not just saying this for this arguments sake but in general, I dont buy the whole undefeated fighters are more dangerous theory, never have done. People say they dont know how to lose, by that logic no one would lose! It's stupid. Of anything a loss makes you stronger because you've experienced the mistakes and have learnt how to avoid them. Just my opinion of course.

[Red]

Bika is very crude. Nobody on earth had heard of him before Calzaghe brought him in.

He'd had 1no fight at Super Middleweight which ended in 2 rounds following a clash of heads. Before then going to Wales and he gave Joe hell, who couldn't do a thing with him.

The version that Ward fought was far more seasoned. Winning the contender, going 12 in a title fight with Bute plus brutal stoppages of Manfredo (thought he was dead) and Jean Paul

Also how can people rave about Hopkins ? Taylor out boxed him over 24 rounds at his most dominating best. Froch knocked him out.

Hopkins drew and the beat beat Pascal. Froch did a better job on Pascal than anyone and didn't get dropped in the process.

Ward beat Froch.

Fact is both Ward and Froch have superior records and will continue to leave Joes legacy in the rear view mirror.

You can't build a career from 2 or 3 well-timed wins, when there's 40 odds turds floating around I'm afraid. And that will always be Joes downfall - that he took the easy route and it took 10 years to even challenge another belt holder !

Joe should have confirmed his alleged greatness, but was too happy to milk the tit of armchair casuals, than man-up. Hence people convinced, or unconvinced of his standing.

Personally , I find people 'convinced' without proof or deliberately ignorant of subtle but very important facts, are what's wrong with boxing.

They champion a fighter who wins all these 'fantasy forum fights' when in the real world he fought hardly anyone in their prime.

Yet the same people ridicule and question those actually out there and having these elite fights!

They add to the problem of the importance of the "unbeaten record".

Ward is unbeaten, he is considered boring by many (me too) but generally he's passed all his tests with flying colours, and the same cannot be said about Joe at a lower level for a large portion of his career. Fact is, Joe would have been just another 'test' for ward.

"Ward couldn't bring the fans in, he's boring to watch" would be Calzaghes press release. "Joe would stop Ward in a couple of rounds." said Enzo. And so on and son. They wouldn't fight him, end of. Joe was nearly disowned by Enzo when he wouldn't get in the car to fight a slugger like Lacy. He literally shat his pants and was dragged there.

But far more confident against Kessler, they knew he was faulty. And Hopkins was saying win or lose Calzaghe was his last fight. So at that point in time they were licking their lips - unbeknown Hopkins still had plenty in him.

Doesn't mean Joe is less exciting and was a lot more fan-friendly than Ward. but that's my assessment. A) he wouldn't fight him and b) if he did he loses.

[Aaron]

i know typo on the bika thing.. as people had posted while writing it.

ive taken your point and yes maybe so ward has achieved quite alot in a short space of time, but he has beaten people who have already suffered defeat which kind of my point as to devalues the win slightly.

and yes i do mean the same pavlik.. off the top of my head people were also thinking it was an easy fight for pav with the extra weight etc.

and one thing that bugs the life out of me is people jumping over lacey saying hypejob all the time.. hindsight is 20/20.

no doubt you were one of the people who felt joe was going to lose as well.

 

By that reasoning then Joe's win over Hopkins counts for nothing as he had already lost four times?

[Che Guevara]

Bika is very crude. Nobody on earth had heard of him before Calzaghe brought him in.

He'd had 1no fight at Super Middleweight which ended in 2 rounds following a clash of heads. Before then going to Wales and he gave Joe hell, who couldn't do a thing with him.

The version that Ward fought was far more seasoned. Winning the contender, going 12 in a title fight with Bute plus brutal stoppages of Manfredo (thought he was dead) and Jean Paul

Also how can people rave about Hopkins ? Taylor out boxed him over 24 rounds at his most dominating best. Froch knocked him out.

Hopkins drew and the beat beat Pascal. Froch did a better job on Pascal than anyone and didn't get dropped in the process.

Ward beat Froch.

Fact is both Ward and Froch have superior records and will continue to leave Joes legacy in the rear view mirror.

You can't build a career from 2 or 3 well-timed wins, when there's 40 odds turds floating around I'm afraid. And that will always be Joes downfall - that he took the easy route and it took 10 years to even challenge another belt holder !

Joe should have confirmed his alleged greatness, but was too happy to milk the tit of armchair casuals, than man-up. Hence people convinced, or unconvinced of his standing.

Personally , I find people 'convinced' without proof or deliberately ignorant of subtle but very important facts, are what's wrong with boxing.

They champion a fighter who wins all these 'fantasy forum fights' when in the real world he fought hardly anyone in their prime.

Yet the same people ridicule and question those actually out there and having these elite fights!

They add to the problem of the importance of the "unbeaten record".

Ward is unbeaten, he is considered boring by many (me too) but generally he's passed all his tests with flying colours, and the same cannot be said about Joe at a lower level for a large portion of his career. Fact is, Joe would have been just another 'test' for ward.

"Ward couldn't bring the fans in, he's boring to watch" would be Calzaghes press release. "Joe would stop Ward in a couple of rounds." said Enzo. And so on and son. They wouldn't fight him, end of. Joe was nearly disowned by Enzo when he wouldn't get in the car to fight a slugger like Lacy. He literally shat his pants and was dragged there.

But far more confident against Kessler, they knew he was faulty. And Hopkins was saying win or lose Calzaghe was his last fight. So at that point in time they were licking their lips - unbeknown Hopkins still had plenty in him.

Doesn't mean Joe is less exciting and was a lot more fan-friendly than Ward. but that's my assessment. A) he wouldn't fight him and b) if he did he loses.

whats with you bigging up ward all of a sudden??  he was only a no good headbutting billy goat, who done nothing but hold and hit like a bitch a while back.....

[Stef]

Its brilliant to see all these posters on various forums saying how amazing Ward now is when the other week Froch was going to dominate him. Theyre a fickle bunch.

[Che Guevara]

Its brilliant to see all these posters on various forums saying how amazing Ward now is when the other week Froch was going to dominate him. Theyre a fickle bunch.

some turnaround on here anyway.... i was two yrs preaching on here and nobody would believe me.

[Tim2366]

Its brilliant to see all these posters on various forums saying how amazing Ward now is when the other week Froch was going to dominate him. Theyre a fickle bunch.

Its not fickle, we backed our fighter..thats what we do, i spent alot of money following Carl and its been worth every penny. When a guy puts on a show like Ward did than all you can do is take youre hat off. I had many debates with Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, Kessler, AA and Johnson fans and all of them backed there fighter and a majority of them were rooting for Carl to beat Ward because they saw just how good Carl was when he beat there fighter...Carl even gained Danish fans when he lost to Kessler.

Am I a Ward fan now? no but I see him as the best at super middleweight because boring or not the guy knows how to win.

[Aaron]

Its brilliant to see all these posters on various forums saying how amazing Ward now is when the other week Froch was going to dominate him. Theyre a fickle bunch.

What are you talking about at all?

Ward was rated before Carl faced him by many on here, the fact people thought Carl had a chance of beating him does not play down how good people thought Ward was. Also fighters can prove things in fights that people might not of been aware of prior to that fight taking place, its nothing new.