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[Red]

Now it's concluded we can pick the bones and ask 'what if?'

For me , The Super Six has wrecked everyone who entered apart from the winner.

Kessler retired, Allan Green knocked out and finished at 168, Glen Johnson needs both elbows operating on, Dirrell been out for 2 years. Abraham whom was so self-assured and effective is now a badly beaten punching bag and a shadow of the man who came out as favorite after stage 1.

Being honest and weighing it up, I think Carl blunted himself with rock hard fights, and even harder training camps for 2+ years around the world.

The kind of stuff Froch did for the last 2 or 3 years is normally what other Brits do in their last fight or two of their careers. Froch will likely do the exact reverse.

I think if he'd had Kessler, Green, Bika all in Nottingham then a 3rd-hand Abraham (previously beaten up by Dirrel then Ward) before fighting in the final 2hours flying from Nottingham - then it could have made a big difference to Carl. He'd be undefeated and not had the trauma of dragging a heavily pregnant girlfriend around Europe and leaving a baby son at home, or having the mental stress of a loss to deal with.

Likewise if Ward fought Dirrell , fought Kessler in Herning (and got DQ'd) then Abraham in a -20 degrees Helsinki, then Glen Johnson before flying the Atlantic to fight in London he'd likely be a lot more ragged than he was on Saturday and certainly going into it previously defeated.

Many would say Ward would win regardless, which is understandable. But for me Carl looked lethargic very early. McCracken said "switch on Carl!" during opener and the work rate which Carl always brings, plus the accuracy just was not there.

It reminded me in some ways of Naz vs Barrera. When Naz decided not to flip into the ringi thought "something is wrong here".

That was more of a confidence thing for Naz. But for Carl he just looked fatigued in the run-up. He perked up at the presser. But in the ring and the opening rounds the pressure, the work rate and grunting was all switched off. The cockpit didn't switch on and light up until nearly the halfway point.

That's very uncharacteristic of Froch. A slow starter at times, he knew this time he had to be on it from the first bell.

It certainly wasn't Ward's freakish punching power getting Carl scared to trade..

Put simply, he never had any wind in his sails.

And for me that flat performance is a culmination of many hard camps, many difficult and hard fights for high stakes abroad, dealing with defeat and not to mention becoming a dad and all the extra media, sponsor and other stuff.

If their respective paths to the final were swapped, I think we'd have seen Andre showing fatigue sooner, and Froch firing on all cylinders. I think it could have a difference.

Bute.

All of the above aside, if you digest what I'm saying and agree with it - fighting another fresh and ready fighter in his hometown (Bute) is not something that will end well for Froch unless he has a long rest from boxing.

He needs to relax over Xmas, book himself a cruise round the Carribean, then check into a Villa for a couple of weeks. Then perhaps ease back into it around May for and August homecoming.

Fighting away in April suits nobody but his opponent. An opponent that's had everything on his own terms for too long now.

I'd rather not see the fight at all, than see a jaded Froch in need of a break getting beaten by a man not made of the stuff Carl is.

[Brick Top]

I just think personally don't think Carl is good enough regardless of outside factors, I didn't see anything in his performance that made me think 'what's wrong with him, this isn't the usual Froch', War just nullified him

[Red]

I just think personally don't think Carl is good enough regardless of outside factors, I didn't see anything in his performance that made me think 'what's wrong with him, this isn't the usual Froch', War just nullified him

The thread is about Bute . Do you think it's a wise move so soon?

[Forest]

Much as I think Bute's a chicken for not moving out of Montreal (you can't count the jolly to France) I really think he'd give Carl problems, particularly with his body shots.

I wouldn't match Carl with Bute yet. I agree he could do with a decent layoff, get himself mentally right and then get Kessler back in Nottingham - a fight that, if he's switched on and motivated, he is well capable of winning. This might then give him the confidence he'd need against Bute.

Regarding your other points, I think the Super Six has been brilliant. There are bound to be casualties and losers but that's what happens when top fighters fight each other. If the Super Six started AGAIN right now, with the same entrants, I'd still be excitited to watch the fights.

[Jambonhead]

perhaps....

we have said since about the 2nd fight the tournement that the whole event seemed to be favour ward.

ward had 3 genuine hometown fights in oakland, 1 down the road in california and another just a short plane trip away in his own country

froch had a torid away fight vs taylor before he even started the tournement,then 1 hometown fight, 1 fight in kesslers backyard, 1 fight in the cold depths of helsinki, and then 2 back to back fights away from home in yet another foreign country.

I agree froch has had the harder fights and harder journey, but like u said maybe ward wouldve won regardless.

we have known the tournement favoured ward and the grit and willing to travel and take on all comers abroad should only reflect well on froch.

In answer to your question i dont want to see froch v bute next full stop, i think he should reverse the blotch of kessler off his record first in nottingham, then go for a bute neutral venue

before anything i wouldnt mind seeing him take a few months of complete time off, i think a ring return in may would make sense. time away from the ring and gym physically will do him well, and time mentally away from the gruelling super six will do him well. He can come back to the gym say march to get back on it fully refreshed and raring to go

[jimjack]

Froch needs a decent rest and maybe (if he still wants it) look at Bute. Commiting to something now would only be a mental strain regardless when the date was set for.
I said on the main fight thread, although Carl was outlcassed and may be beaten every time from Ward I think he is better than what he showed on Sat.

[Brick Top]

The thread is about Bute . Do you think it's a wise move so soon?

Probably not a wise move right not and if anyone could be forgiven for a 'gimme' in his next fight it's Froch, but he doesn't strike me as the type to be motivated by those kind of fights so it's a tough situation. I think a move to 175 could be a good option personally, it's a new goal to set sights on and perhaps a clash with jean pascal again.

[Che Guevara]

this whole ward had home fights is getting so boring....hed beat froch and the rest of them in any ring anywer on the planet. at the end of the day its a boxing ring it dont matter where it is. froch had a home fight against dirrell didnt make it any easier of a fight for him did it??

imo froch needs to put the feet up come back in may/june against somebody decent and line up a bute or kessler bout for the end of 2012, failing that i would love to see him go up and destroy cleverly.

[Red]

Given Carl's approach to fighting only the best, he'd need a decent target to get his juices flowing. I think Clev brings a belt, home interest and an undefeated record to the table and Bute aside, is the best of the rest.

Carl and Eddie would take it in a heartbeat - Sky would see the potential and definitely be on board for it.

However I think Clev's handlers wouldn't go for it. It would seem the lad's own ambitions would be swept aside for a WBO run of no-names and part time fighters, as they claw in the Welsh fans money into their coffers.

Fights that won't improve a decent fighter like Nathan in the long run.

Nobody calls out Carl, thus he'd be impressed with attitude. Carl's often said he'd welcome the youngsters challenging him, after the previous generation wouldn't afford him his chance.

On the flip side, some people might implore him not to give a FW fighter the airtime after the way they wouldn't entertain him a few years ago.

We shall see. But as a fan it's a good fight. Say Clev lost, he's plenty young enough still to bounce back.

[Tim2366]

The thing is, Carl never had a fight off....he just went for the best over and over....I think this was also Taylors down fall. Carl took 4 fights away from home where he was the underdog...he won 2 of them. Carls just to brave and imo it cost him 2 defeats. However I stil think he could beat both Kessler and Bute but Ward does seem to be the man at the weight. Should Carl fight Bute? well id love it and win lose or draw I couldnt see how anyone could knock him....Imagine if Carl went to Canada next to beat an undefeated Bute? what a career hed of had.

Pascal-home
Taylor-usa
Dirrell-home
Kessler-denmark
AA-finland
Johnson-usa
Ward-usa
Bute-home/canada

TBH ive seen a thew people calling Carl washed up and even a bum, what a joke....imo Wards gonna be almost impossible for anyone to beat so to call Carl washed up for that loss is shocking, not that i agree with the score cards but 1 round going the other way n it would have been a majority draw plus Carl was bossing the 11th n 12th...hes the only guy in the super six to have Ward lookig at the clock after being stunned.

[pete postlethwaite]

I think Froch is giving away enough (fight night) weight at 168, 175 would be a bad move. He needs to rest and recuperate, allow events to unfold for the next few months, before securing a contest on hs terms in the UK.

[King Cotto]

Keep busy with battering Pavlik in Notts and then have a showdown with Kess for his belt, which he'll get in March, perhaps in London. That should be enough till late summer nxt year.

That's what I'd tell Carl.

[deck]

I think Froch is giving away enough (fight night) weight at 168, 175 would be a bad move. He needs to rest and recuperate, allow events to unfold for the next few months, before securing a contest on hs terms in the UK.

I've thought that too. He's not got the frame to put on 7lb of effective muscle. He's in great shape at 168lbs and he doesn't go too much higher in walking round weight.

[pete postlethwaite]

Now it's concluded we can pick the bones and ask 'what if?'

For me , The Super Six has wrecked everyone who entered apart from the winner.

Kessler retired, Allan Green knocked out and finished at 168, Glen Johnson needs both elbows operating on, Dirrell been out for 2 years. Abraham whom was so self-assured and effective is now a badly beaten punching bag and a shadow of the man who came out as favorite after stage 1.

Being honest and weighing it up, I think Carl blunted himself with rock hard fights, and even harder training camps for 2+ years around the world.

The kind of stuff Froch did for the last 2 or 3 years is normally what other Brits do in their last fight or two of their careers. Froch will likely do the exact reverse.

I think if he'd had Kessler, Green, Bika all in Nottingham then a 3rd-hand Abraham (previously beaten up by Dirrel then Ward) before fighting in the final 2hours flying from Nottingham - then it could have made a big difference to Carl. He'd be undefeated and not had the trauma of dragging a heavily pregnant girlfriend around Europe and leaving a baby son at home, or having the mental stress of a loss to deal with.

Likewise if Ward fought Dirrell , fought Kessler in Herning (and got DQ'd) then Abraham in a -20 degrees Helsinki, then Glen Johnson before flying the Atlantic to fight in London he'd likely be a lot more ragged than he was on Saturday and certainly going into it previously defeated.

Many would say Ward would win regardless, which is understandable. But for me Carl looked lethargic very early. McCracken said "switch on Carl!" during opener and the work rate which Carl always brings, plus the accuracy just was not there.

It reminded me in some ways of Naz vs Barrera. When Naz decided not to flip into the ringi thought "something is wrong here".

That was more of a confidence thing for Naz. But for Carl he just looked fatigued in the run-up. He perked up at the presser. But in the ring and the opening rounds the pressure, the work rate and grunting was all switched off. The cockpit didn't switch on and light up until nearly the halfway point.

That's very uncharacteristic of Froch. A slow starter at times, he knew this time he had to be on it from the first bell.

It certainly wasn't Ward's freakish punching power getting Carl scared to trade..

Put simply, he never had any wind in his sails.

And for me that flat performance is a culmination of many hard camps, many difficult and hard fights for high stakes abroad, dealing with defeat and not to mention becoming a dad and all the extra media, sponsor and other stuff.

If their respective paths to the final were swapped, I think we'd have seen Andre showing fatigue sooner, and Froch firing on all cylinders. I think it could have a difference.

Bute.

All of the above aside, if you digest what I'm saying and agree with it - fighting another fresh and ready fighter in his hometown (Bute) is not something that will end well for Froch unless he has a long rest from boxing.

He needs to relax over Xmas, book himself a cruise round the Carribean, then check into a Villa for a couple of weeks. Then perhaps ease back into it around May for and August homecoming.

Fighting away in April suits nobody but his opponent. An opponent that's had everything on his own terms for too long now.

I'd rather not see the fight at all, than see a jaded Froch in need of a break getting beaten by a man not made of the stuff Carl is.

Great breakdown that Red. Would give you an iq but some lunatic in his infinite wisdom scrapped it!  

Kessler could have continued in the tournament, I have no doubt's. He opted for self preservation though. He's rested and ready to go again, but he should not be afforded the opportunity of feasting on the wreckage. The super six was a great idea but it dragged on far too long. The tournament was no egalitarian utopia, in certain aspects it was a rigged game from the off, and some of the behind the scenes scheming left a nasty aftertaste. It seems that there was some prescience in the diatribe of Kelly Pavlik after all.

[Aaron]

How bad of a move do people think it would be for someone like Groves or Degale to take a punt at Carl now?

I am only thinking that with Carl's exposure being higher than ever and someone like Groves who is gaining intrest by the fight, it is a fight Groves could lose and still easily have a great career ahead of them.

Not long ago Degale was rumoured with a fight with Pavlick so it would not shock me to see a offer come out of the blue from either camp, more likely Degale than Groves though as George seems to be aware he is not ready for that level yet.

It would not offer Carl that much but it would be a return to winning ways in what could be billed as a decent domestic clash.