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Author Topic: Cotto vs Clottey - Discuss the fight ***SPOILER***  (Read 35910 times)
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Gaz
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« Reply #135 on: June 16, 2009, 08:46:55 PM »

He has proved me wrong in those areas, although my views on his strategy for the Margarito fight are relatively unchanged, I can confirm he has a brain up there after all. I'm still not completey convinced on his heart though, Clottey eased up on the pressure when things really started to look dire for Miguel, although it remains a couragous performance that has raised his standing in my eyes.

I would definitely agree that Clottey more or less gave the last few rounds to Cotto, which proved the difference in the end. As for his heart well I'm not sure what else he has to do to convince you. He has been hurt in so many of his fights yet fought back and invariably won, with the obvious exception of the Margarito fight.
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« Reply #135 on: June 16, 2009, 08:46:55 PM »

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Keegan Jacobs
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« Reply #136 on: June 16, 2009, 08:50:30 PM »

I see where your coming from though point to a recent example of Edison Miranda following Andre Ward around the ring without doing anything. Sure Ward threw more than Miranda and at times backed him-up but if we go by your definition of a Ring General then would we consider Miranda to have been it? Not in my opinion.

Welsh, i never said if you walk somebody down then you should be rewarded credit for ring generalship. I did mention that before a fight, judges know who the brawler is and who the pure boxer is. Your example of ward vs miranda and who i would give ring generalship to is simple , look at my previous posts, its who puts who in the discomfort zone and ward was frustrating miranda so much , miranda just stopped throwing because of wards elusive movement which i gave credit to and won RING GENERALSHIP.  Ward is not a brawler and judges know that before he entered the ring and he fought his fight , miranda is a puncher and couldnt even throw a punch in the mid to late rounds and judges saw that .

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In the instance of Cotto vs Clottey - it was Cotto who dictated how the fight was fought - on his terms. Clottey followed him and I certainly disagree that Clottey is "a tactition". He seemed to have no tactics apart from Game plan 1 - a tactician is someone like Azumah Nelson or Mike McCallum that can adjust to the fight - Clottey showed his limitations by not being able to adjust/adapt to Cotto's movement - hence he wasn't controlling the fight.

Cotto is very sneaky with his backpedalling , he will throw bombs at times and you have to be very patient when coming in and clottey did that , i thought he landed even though not hard shots but still enough to win him the round. Maybe tactition is too good of a word for clottey but he has skills that many dont know or cant see .

I agree with the rest of what you said
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Haynesey
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« Reply #137 on: June 16, 2009, 08:53:18 PM »

I would definitely agree that Clottey more or less gave the last few rounds to Cotto, which proved the difference in the end. As for his heart well I'm not sure what else he has to do to convince you. He has been hurt in so many of his fights yet fought back and invariably won, with the obvious exception of the Margarito fight.

Unfortunately I think it's difficult to ever fully make up for quitting in a fight, although if Cotto is again put in the same conditions Plasterito placed him under and fails to fold then I'm pretty much sold. I feel it's very unlikely however.
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WelshDevilRob
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« Reply #138 on: June 16, 2009, 08:56:23 PM »

I'm very surprised Cottos heart is in question - he has been to the mill several times. His fights against Bailey, Torres and Quintana are testament to that.
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« Reply #139 on: June 16, 2009, 09:01:06 PM »

I'm very surprised Cottos heart is in question - he has been to the mill several times. His fights against Bailey, Torres and Quintana are testament to that.

When put under the most extreme conditions of his career Cotto surrendered, that is where his heart comes into question mate.
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« Reply #139 on: June 16, 2009, 09:01:06 PM »

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WelshDevilRob
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« Reply #140 on: June 16, 2009, 09:10:03 PM »

When put under the most extreme conditions of his career Cotto surrendered, that is where his heart comes into question mate.

Watch those 3 fights and he was under "extreme conditions" and didn't quit. He won all 3 fights. His heart is in no question from people who have seen the majority of his fights.

In the File Share section - help yourself mate.
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Gaz
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« Reply #141 on: June 16, 2009, 09:12:39 PM »

Unfortunately I think it's difficult to ever fully make up for quitting in a fight, although if Cotto is again put in the same conditions Plasterito placed him under and fails to fold then I'm pretty much sold. I feel it's very unlikely however.

I don't think it's anything like as simple as he just quit against Marg, but I've had that argument a million times over I can't be arsed again!
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Haynesey
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« Reply #142 on: June 16, 2009, 09:20:32 PM »

Watch those 3 fights and he was under "extreme conditions" and didn't quit. He won all 3 fights. His heart is in no question from people who have seen the majority of his fights.

In the File Share section - help yourself mate.

I'm not a Cotto fan but I have seen a considerable amount of his fights, it is only the Bailey bout that I have not viewed of the 3 you mentioned; I watched the Quintana fight a fair while a go and was not under the impression that it was a particularly gruelling bout. The Torres fight was an up and down war, but I do not believe that Cotto suffered as much sustained punishment as in the Margarito fight, which remains his most gruelling bout and the one in which his heart did not hold up.
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Haynesey
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« Reply #143 on: June 16, 2009, 09:25:00 PM »

I don't think it's anything like as simple as he just quit against Marg, but I've had that argument a million times over I can't be arsed again!

I really don't see there being much to argue with! Cotto chose to take a knee and surrender rather than go out on his shield against Margarito, it's not a nice word to associate with any fighter but he did quit.
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Gaz
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« Reply #144 on: June 16, 2009, 09:29:26 PM »

I really don't see there being much to argue with! Cotto chose to take a knee and surrender rather than go out on his shield against Margarito, it's not a nice word to associate with any fighter but he did quit.

He had nothing left to give and his body gave up on him, as far as I could see anyway. Margarito beat the resistence out of him. Whether his gloves were loaded or not is a different matter but Cotto for me did well to fight on for as long as he did. A lot of fighters would have subsided a lot sooner than Cotto did, especially in the 7th and 10th rounds when he was wobbled and hurt most badly.
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WelshDevilRob
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« Reply #145 on: June 16, 2009, 09:31:29 PM »

I'm not a Cotto fan but I have seen a considerable amount of his fights, it is only the Bailey bout that I have not viewed of the 3 you mentioned; I watched the Quintana fight a fair while a go and was not under the impression that it was a particularly gruelling bout. The Torres fight was an up and down war, but I do not believe that Cotto suffered as much sustained punishment as in the Margarito fight, which remains his most gruelling bout and the one in which his heart did not hold up.

The other fighters didn't have loaded gloves. Margarito did. Still Cotto was hurt and floored in previous bouts and fought on - that is an indication of heart.

If Margarito beat him then fair enough - it shouldn't mean he hasn't got 'heart'.
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« Reply #146 on: June 16, 2009, 09:49:32 PM »

I'm not a Cotto fan but I have seen a considerable amount of his fights, it is only the Bailey bout that I have not viewed of the 3 you mentioned; I watched the Quintana fight a fair while a go and was not under the impression that it was a particularly gruelling bout. The Torres fight was an up and down war, but I do not believe that Cotto suffered as much sustained punishment as in the Margarito fight, which remains his most gruelling bout and the one in which his heart did not hold up.

Saying Cotto has no heart is the single most inane thing ive ever read on Livefight ( and ive read a lot of Apollo's posts )

By your logic, because Cotto quit against Margarito he has no heart?

So did Roberto Duran have no heart either? remember Duran Vs Leonard II ??
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Keegan Jacobs
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« Reply #147 on: June 16, 2009, 09:52:18 PM »

I still have that fight in my head ( cotto vs margarito ) . Never seen a fighter(margarito) take so many shots and the man kept coming after cotto.

It reminds me of rocky II , when apollos cornerman Tony said " hes wrong for us , never seen a man take so much punishment and he kept coming after us, hes wrong for us, let it go "

haha
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Haynesey
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« Reply #148 on: June 16, 2009, 09:53:39 PM »

The other fighters didn't have loaded gloves. Margarito did. Still Cotto was hurt and floored in previous bouts and fought on - that is an indication of heart.

If Margarito beat him then fair enough - it shouldn't mean he hasn't got 'heart'.

Cotto chose to take a knee rather than fight on and be knocked out, this can not be ignored and his courage must surely come into question. The fact that Margarito had loaded gloves does not matter, Cotto was unaware and so his mind set was not that he was being unfairly beaten.
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Gaz
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« Reply #149 on: June 16, 2009, 09:55:04 PM »

Cotto chose to take a knee rather than fight on and being knocked out, this can not be ignored and his courage must surely come into question. The fact that Margarito had loaded gloves does not matter, Cotto was unaware and so his mind set was not that he was being unfairly beaten.

Or his mind set was that he was physically incapable of continuing...
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