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Author Topic: Mikkel Kessler announces return to the ring  (Read 1620 times)
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lurkyshaka
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2017, 12:17:50 PM »

He was definetly talented, but overrated. When up against other top draws --with the exception of the Froch fight(s)-- he didn't even look competitive.

Bitched and moaned about Ward holding and head butting him, yet he was down 6 rounds on two cards when they stopped it. Hardly landed a glove on Calzaghe. Think he was a good fighter, but had a choosy record in the comfort of his home for most of his career. Aside from fighters who he has lost to, it is hard to pick an opponent of note.

Think thats overly harsh....

He didn't fight well against Ward, but he was butted and fouled all night long....was up against Ward and a hometown official and realised early on that he was going to be allowed to leave Oakland with a win. I don't think its fair to hold that loss against him.

Against Calzaghe he fought well with an injury away from home. Gave Joe a decent tussle and Calzaghe produced one of his best performances to prevail. Kessler showed in that fight he belonged at the highest level because like him or not Calzaghe was one of the finest 168 pounders ever.

Underneath that Kessler had a solid slate beating several men who held world titles. He also beat some very dangerous unbeaten contenders along the way.

Kessler was a very solid fighter, powerful, technically sound,  strong, durable and a classy fella. He's probably underrated really. If an American had his record they'd receive much more acclaim.
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2017, 12:17:50 PM »

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ChicagoFightFan
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2017, 08:15:32 PM »

gee, i wonder why that might be....? hmm

Are you insisting that it was Ward's headbutts that won the fight? That's equally as ridiculous as Kessler's claim that Ward did it on purpose. They were incidental head butts. It's a part of boxing and he moaned after the fight because he couldn't put two punches together on Ward. When has anyone accused Ward of deliberately head butting before or after that fight?

I find it telling that European fans bought Kessler's narrative and excused the lopsided loss as a result of foul play. As I have said, he was a good fighter but has been built up into something that he was not.
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ChicagoFightFan
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2017, 12:21:34 AM »

Think thats overly harsh....

He didn't fight well against Ward, but he was butted and fouled all night long....was up against Ward and a hometown official and realised early on that he was going to be allowed to leave Oakland with a win. I don't think its fair to hold that loss against him.

Against Calzaghe he fought well with an injury away from home. Gave Joe a decent tussle and Calzaghe produced one of his best performances to prevail. Kessler showed in that fight he belonged at the highest level because like him or not Calzaghe was one of the finest 168 pounders ever.

Underneath that Kessler had a solid slate beating several men who held world titles. He also beat some very dangerous unbeaten contenders along the way.

Kessler was a very solid fighter, powerful, technically sound,  strong, durable and a classy fella. He's probably underrated really. If an American had his record they'd receive much more acclaim.

A young, unpolished Ward was able to hand a prime Kessler a lopsided loss. That says a lot. Kessler complained about all of the tying up and mocked Ward's power, yet he was hit hard enough to tie up many times himself. Also, I think the thing that is conveniently forgotten is the amount of inside work Ward did in that fight. It was hardly all stall tactics.

I can give you a list of fighters who break their hands in every fight (Mayweather being one) and still turn up with a victory. The type of loss that he took from Calzaghe was humiliating. It had nothing to do with injury and everything to do with a gulf in skill.

I have gotten away from my point of him being overrated and am moving towards an attack on his skill and ability, which wasn't what I intended. He had power, athleticism, and ability. He was very good, but he was considered one of the best European fighters in the world at the time. My point is that time has shown us that he wasn't even the best European fighter in his own division.

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GOD
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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2017, 04:02:59 AM »

A young, unpolished Ward was able to hand a prime Kessler a lopsided loss. That says a lot. Kessler complained about all of the tying up and mocked Ward's power, yet he was hit hard enough to tie up many times himself. Also, I think the thing that is conveniently forgotten is the amount of inside work Ward did in that fight. It was hardly all stall tactics.

I can give you a list of fighters who break their hands in every fight (Mayweather being one) and still turn up with a victory. The type of loss that he took from Calzaghe was humiliating. It had nothing to do with injury and everything to do with a gulf in skill.

I have gotten away from my point of him being overrated and am moving towards an attack on his skill and ability, which wasn't what I intended. He had power, athleticism, and ability. He was very good, but he was considered one of the best European fighters in the world at the time. My point is that time has shown us that he wasn't even the best European fighter in his own division.



Everything you have said about Kessler is fair...

Kessler is a lovely guy...

He obviously is an accomplished fighter, but he is too "textbook" and will lose every time to a fighter with something special about them...

Calzaghe beat him because he was more adaptable...I watched that fight live at the millenium with a group of Danes who left heartbroken and admitted their boy had been exposed...

Ward outcrafted and befuddled him...

Froch was able to outfight him in their rematch...

If I could sum Kessler up in one word, it would be COMPLIANT. Against the right opponent for him (i.e. Andrade etc) he is an absolute joy to watch. He will beat most guys because he is an accomplished fighter, but he will come up short against the elite. He doesn't have the adaptability, lateral movement, foot movement, ring craft etc to do anything otherwise.
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jimjack
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« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2017, 08:12:28 AM »

A young, unpolished Ward was able to hand a prime Kessler a lopsided loss. That says a lot. Kessler complained about all of the tying up and mocked Ward's power, yet he was hit hard enough to tie up many times himself. Also, I think the thing that is conveniently forgotten is the amount of inside work Ward did in that fight. It was hardly all stall tactics.

I can give you a list of fighters who break their hands in every fight (Mayweather being one) and still turn up with a victory. The type of loss that he took from Calzaghe was humiliating. It had nothing to do with injury and everything to do with a gulf in skill.

I have gotten away from my point of him being overrated and am moving towards an attack on his skill and ability, which wasn't what I intended. He had power, athleticism, and ability. He was very good, but he was considered one of the best European fighters in the world at the time. My point is that time has shown us that he wasn't even the best European fighter in his own division.



The thing is though the 2 loses where he was beaten comfortably (tbh calzaghe wasn't comfortable for the first half of the fight) which you refer back to were against 2 of the best smw boxers in the last 30 years. Take those 2 away and he would have been competitive with anyone else with the exeption of a few special talents.
Like I say he may not have been p4p great, but he was very good as he was proficient in all areas and had massive heart too.
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« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2017, 08:12:28 AM »

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lurkyshaka
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« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2017, 08:27:06 AM »

A young, unpolished Ward was able to hand a prime Kessler a lopsided loss. That says a lot. Kessler complained about all of the tying up and mocked Ward's power, yet he was hit hard enough to tie up many times himself. Also, I think the thing that is conveniently forgotten is the amount of inside work Ward did in that fight. It was hardly all stall tactics.

I can give you a list of fighters who break their hands in every fight (Mayweather being one) and still turn up with a victory. The type of loss that he took from Calzaghe was humiliating. It had nothing to do with injury and everything to do with a gulf in skill.

I have gotten away from my point of him being overrated and am moving towards an attack on his skill and ability, which wasn't what I intended. He had power, athleticism, and ability. He was very good, but he was considered one of the best European fighters in the world at the time. My point is that time has shown us that he wasn't even the best European fighter in his own division.


As a vastly experienced gold medallist, Ward wasn't exactly unpolished. He'd had the same guy training him for years. Losing to Ward isn't a disgrace especially when it was Ward and team Oakland. Kessler wasn't leaving there with the win, the referee was nothing short of disgraceful....when even the American commentary are pointing it out, that says it all.

Again losing to Calzaghe is hardly a disgrace either and Kessler put forth a very game effort away from home in front of an at the time record crowd in Cardiff. Kessler wasn't the best European in his era....but with Calzaghe around that's no slight on him.

You're holding it against Kessler because he lost to two of the finest super-middleweights in the history of the weight class.

Kessler wouldn't have beaten the top 5 men in the history of 68...indeed he lost to a couple of them in Calzaghe and ward, and the likes of Jones, Toney would have also been too much for him.

But take away the very elite, and Kessler is competitive with the rest and would have beaten many of them. Again if an American had Kessler's resume he'd be given much more fanfare.
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ChicagoFightFan
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« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2017, 03:08:34 PM »

The thing is though the 2 loses where he was beaten comfortably (tbh calzaghe wasn't comfortable for the first half of the fight) which you refer back to were against 2 of the best smw boxers in the last 30 years. Take those 2 away and he would have been competitive with anyone else with the exeption of a few special talents.
Like I say he may not have been p4p great, but he was very good as he was proficient in all areas and had massive heart too.

Not much to argue with there. In another division, he may have went into retirement with an intact allure.

Admittedly, I am being overly tough on him. I would still tune in to see what version we see of him -- post retirement.
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ChicagoFightFan
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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2017, 03:12:34 PM »


As a vastly experienced gold medallist, Ward wasn't exactly unpolished. He'd had the same guy training him for years. Losing to Ward isn't a disgrace especially when it was Ward and team Oakland. Kessler wasn't leaving there with the win, the referee was nothing short of disgraceful....when even the American commentary are pointing it out, that says it all.

Again losing to Calzaghe is hardly a disgrace either and Kessler put forth a very game effort away from home in front of an at the time record crowd in Cardiff. Kessler wasn't the best European in his era....but with Calzaghe around that's no slight on him.

You're holding it against Kessler because he lost to two of the finest super-middleweights in the history of the weight class.

Kessler wouldn't have beaten the top 5 men in the history of 68...indeed he lost to a couple of them in Calzaghe and ward, and the likes of Jones, Toney would have also been too much for him.

But take away the very elite, and Kessler is competitive with the rest and would have beaten many of them. Again if an American had Kessler's resume he'd be given much more fanfare.


I don't disagree with very much of this.

I suppose my sticking point is my recollection of how Kessler was presented at the time. He just didn't live up to what was projected upon him. 
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ChicagoFightFan
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« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2017, 03:17:15 PM »

Everything you have said about Kessler is fair...

Kessler is a lovely guy...

He obviously is an accomplished fighter, but he is too "textbook" and will lose every time to a fighter with something special about them...

Calzaghe beat him because he was more adaptable...I watched that fight live at the millenium with a group of Danes who left heartbroken and admitted their boy had been exposed...

Ward outcrafted and befuddled him...

Froch was able to outfight him in their rematch...

If I could sum Kessler up in one word, it would be COMPLIANT. Against the right opponent for him (i.e. Andrade etc) he is an absolute joy to watch. He will beat most guys because he is an accomplished fighter, but he will come up short against the elite. He doesn't have the adaptability, lateral movement, foot movement, ring craft etc to do anything otherwise.

Spot on.
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« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2017, 03:28:51 PM »

Not much to argue with there. In another division, he may have went into retirement with an intact allure.

Admittedly, I am being overly tough on him. I would still tune in to see what version we see of him -- post retirement.

I've a feeling he will be a shell to be honest. Despite me heaping praise on him, he never has the style that would cope with long lay offs. He seems the type to need constant competition to keep him sharp. Once he has those extending lay offs at his age I think he will struggle to get back to the level he was previously.
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lurkyshaka
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« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2017, 08:43:15 AM »

I don't disagree with very much of this.

I suppose my sticking point is my recollection of how Kessler was presented at the time. He just didn't live up to what was projected upon him. 

Yeah he perhaps didn't....as there were many picking him to beat Calzaghe and Ward going into his fights against them. But in hindsight losses to those pair isn't so shameful considering their standing.

Unlike a lot of other fighters who are happy to stay in comfort zones or at least stack the deck, Kessler dared to step up and came up a little short against the elite on their oppositions turf. Nothing shady went on against Calzage, that was a fair fight. But he didn't get a fair crack of the whip against Ward and team Oakland.

But take those losses away and he had a highly credible career. Splitting a brace with Froch and besting plenty of very solid titlists and contenders. He fits in somewhere around the lower top 10 of the all time 168 listings for me.
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Tim2366
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2017, 10:23:49 AM »

Kessler is a warrior no doubt but he had limitations. His cv bar Froch, Ward and Calzaghe is pretty dry tbh however I still think he'll be a danger to most the current super mids.
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lurkyshaka
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« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2017, 10:56:55 AM »

Kessler is a warrior no doubt but he had limitations. His cv bar Froch, Ward and Calzaghe is pretty dry tbh however I still think he'll be a danger to most the current super mids.

Its short of 'marquee' names....but its very solid with Andrade, Beyer, Green, Mundine, Magee among him victims. He beat about ten men who'd held world titles. Not that dry really.
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Tim2366
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« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2017, 11:10:41 AM »

Its short of 'marquee' names....but its very solid with Andrade, Beyer, Green, Mundine, Magee among him victims. He beat about ten men who'd held world titles. Not that dry really.

Holding a world title isn't exactly ground breaking. Kessler could have beaten all those guys in the same night.
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lurkyshaka
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« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2017, 01:19:20 PM »

Holding a world title isn't exactly ground breaking. Kessler could have beaten all those guys in the same night.

Its something to be respected Tim. Those mentioned weren't monsters but they are world class fighters. The vast majority of super-middles would kill to have his resume.

End of the day its fair to rate Kessler around the lower top 10 at 168 on the all time lists based on his achievements. He was obviously beatable, but a high quality operator nonetheless.
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